38D

"Go deeper, brake later, while turning"

John - i would not assume that TB means later braking, but it normally means longer braking. So, you still start braking in your normal spot, but you start to release the pedal sooner and keep some braking while turning. Since you are a feel guy, I think you'll learn the most thru riding with someone good.

RedlineMan

I agree;

Anybody good got a right seat I can fit in?

RedlineMan

Thanks Guys!

First, not to burst anyone's bubble, but I think that little gem about the transition from "Driving the Grip to Driving the Slip" comes from our learned Rennsport Region colleauge Monsieur Marc Belanger. I remember reading it in Der Auspuff over the Winter and remarking at what an incredibly sage quip it was. I've used it in my articles as well.

Of course, getting some different perspectives on what it is is useful. I'm more interested in how the hell I physically get myself to do it? I think Colin has a large part of the answer; Watch it being done skillfully. The rest is up to me. Man... I HATE having to think when I drive!

mdrums

TD in DC, that has nothing to do with the actual autocross...that is the fault of the person and club that sets up the course. At our autocrosses before you get back to the box to stop there are many cones set up to slow everyone down and the staging area is not in front of the stop box plus the club trailer is blocking the stage area.

Brian P

I'll be honest John.... I'm surprised you're having difficulty with this, and this is from a standpoint of "wow, you have some skills that I'd like to have". When I've gone on rides with you, I was amazed by your smoothness of inputs and it forced me to take a look over at your feetwork, because I was pretty sure that the only way it could be this smooth was with left foot braking. Sure enough, I saw you doing LFB and pretty comfortably.

I would think that with your ease of LFB you would be very comfortable trail braking into turn. When the rotation felt a bit much, you would be easily able to settle the car with the right foot. This would negate much of the drama (from the driver's point of view) throughout the turn.

It just goes to show that mastery of one skill doesn't easily translate into mastery of related skills. That's what keeps this sport challenging...

TD in DC

I was just joking on a Friday afternoon. I thought the pictures were funny.

mdrums

Good deal....funny in a mean way I guess.... I know when I saw those pictures months ago I really looked at how our course was set up. We run at an airport so there are no walls for Eddie Griffen to run into and we have a few hard turns and boxes to go through well before and leading up to the stop box. Our guy that runs the show and sets this all up is Ralph Carr and him and his dad are well versed in keeping us very safe.

It's all good! Mike

Nordschleife

The fastest way of learning to trail brake is by out braking the opposition on the way into the corner.

So you brake later than you normally would and find yourself too fast and on the wrong line as you enter the corner. Atr this point you NEED to understand trail braking. In fact if you don't acquire the techniqur 'real soon now', you will be off on some other planet.

But never mind, as the ancients said - 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'.

Seriously, I found it helpful to realise that there is a lot more grip that is often unused, and that its faster to take advantage of that. Whilst braking and turning, its a good idea to be very smooth with your inputs, I think of it as rather like driving in the wet, you just have to be a lot more sensitive to what the car is telling you. You wilol feel vthe rear end sliding too fast and ease off the brakes a fraction and release the steering a knuckle, you will feel the car on the edge. After a shortwhile you will feel that the car's attitude is whatever you want it to be.

R+C

RedlineMan

Hey;

Thanks Brian. Of course you are right that it is a skill whos time is past due for me. In reality, I have been TBing for years, but solely for transitional stabilization, not to lengthen the straight and save the day with "oh ****" rotation.

Thanks Nordy. That is all quite true. Put another way, when the **** hits the fan, it's best to have a raincoat handy!

The turn where I am actually trying to rationalize its use most is the Off Camber at WGI. That is a turn that I KNOW I am having to give up serious entry speed simply because the turn in area will not hold the car. I am convinced there is a lot more entry speed available there, but I'm equally aware that 9 is NOT the turn to practice it in. Best to have mastered it first, methinks.

Certainly no one needs to know TB to have fun, and even be fairly quick. At the same time, the Pilot Emeritus should certainly have it in his dossier!

38D

That is definitely a key TB turn. The one I would use to practice in is the toe. You dive all the way inside the concrete and make a long apex.

Sean F

I used the bustop to practice this at the Glen recently. Good bailout room if things go wrong. I also practiced it at T1.

sjanes

Yes, the idea was from Marc, although not from his article. Marc has been one the primary influences on my driving (and instructing) and it's something that he explained to me about 7 years ago. It just took me a while to truly understand it.

trackjunky

Very well said.

I must confess that I learned trailbraking while racing 125CC Karts. You need to slide those bad boys towards the apex to be fast at some of the big tracks like Vegas and Oklahoma.

You can modulate the brakes more in a car than a Kart, IMHO. I use my data logger to help me justify if trailbraking is beneficial. I've found in the past that where I thought I felt fast, I maybe wasn't so fast. Again, my opinion here.

Dan in Florida

[QUOTE=38D]"Go deeper, brake later, while turning"
QUOTE]

John,

Good question and a cool thread. You know more about this stuff than most of us, confirming that we all have more to learn.

For me, it's just a matter of going a little deeper, braking later while turning, just on the edge of a spin, and getting back on the gas just as soon as possible. And when I think I've got it, know it can be done better and faster, so keep working on it.

Dan

M758

This why I suggested making the car understeer. Doing that with FORCE you to respond by doing somthing new to the car. Trail braking will help this alot and thus I believe allow you to make it feel like TB is the right thing to do. Right now you are you comfort zone and while you may want to do something new being in that comfort zone makes it a challenge. Move the car out of the comfort zone and you will need to "relearn" how to hustle the car around.

In some ways I think this like a the old worn or steet tire exercise. Due to the lack of grip it forces you has a drive outside the normal routine thus making you learn something new or refine the technique.