Roll cage door bars, knee bars and pillar gusset questions. (Answers in first post.)
05-02-2007, 10:01 AM
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Roll cage door bars, knee bars and pillar gusset questions. (Answers in first post.)
I have a few questions about the installation of my Mitch Piper cage and staying in PCA rules compliance. I've recently mailed Donna Amico but have not yet heard back. The cage I am having installed will also be NASA-compliant, should I elect to start doing NASA races, should I get booted out of PCA for a 13/13 or should I just get tired of approaching racing with a full safety approach...and a combustible interior.
At the Road Atlanta race, I had a brief discussion with Donna about cage door bars and deleting the door panels to allow the bars to enter into the door cavity, to which she said, yes, the door panels can be removed to allow this scenario in a stock class car.
However, to clarify, I'd also like to run NASCAR-style door bars on the passenger side of my D-class car, but it will mean having to delete the passenger door panel. I really feel that NASCAR-style bars and the subsequently gutted doors, despite the differing opinions that I've read here on the safety of NASCAR bars versus straight X bars, are going to be mandated by other sanctiong bodies (at least this is what I've been reading from non-NASA and non-SCCA officials). I would very much like to do the job once.
1) Is this against the PCA rules and/or will PCA eventually soon make a change to allow passenger door panel deletion for higher safety reasons? Answer: Donna Amico wrote to me and stated that PCA does allow door panel deletion.
2) Piper is going to be deleting the stock knee bar to facilitate the cage knee bar installation and to make sure that it is far enough away from my knees if I should have a potential frontal impact. Am I allowed to remove the stock knee bar for this purpose? The PCA rules don't specifically address this deletion. Answer: If the knee bar is a structural part of the car, it can't be deleted. My knee bar is not structural and will be deleted.
3) Finally, am I allowed to weld gussets tying the A and B cage pillars to the roof? Not that I plan on flipping the car, but I was told by a PCA scrut that doing so would greatly facilitate repair of a rolled car since one could have a new roof skinned onto the car. Answer: PCA does allow gussets but most other sanctiong bodies do not.
Thanks for any words of wisdom!
At the Road Atlanta race, I had a brief discussion with Donna about cage door bars and deleting the door panels to allow the bars to enter into the door cavity, to which she said, yes, the door panels can be removed to allow this scenario in a stock class car.
However, to clarify, I'd also like to run NASCAR-style door bars on the passenger side of my D-class car, but it will mean having to delete the passenger door panel. I really feel that NASCAR-style bars and the subsequently gutted doors, despite the differing opinions that I've read here on the safety of NASCAR bars versus straight X bars, are going to be mandated by other sanctiong bodies (at least this is what I've been reading from non-NASA and non-SCCA officials). I would very much like to do the job once.
1) Is this against the PCA rules and/or will PCA eventually soon make a change to allow passenger door panel deletion for higher safety reasons? Answer: Donna Amico wrote to me and stated that PCA does allow door panel deletion.
2) Piper is going to be deleting the stock knee bar to facilitate the cage knee bar installation and to make sure that it is far enough away from my knees if I should have a potential frontal impact. Am I allowed to remove the stock knee bar for this purpose? The PCA rules don't specifically address this deletion. Answer: If the knee bar is a structural part of the car, it can't be deleted. My knee bar is not structural and will be deleted.
3) Finally, am I allowed to weld gussets tying the A and B cage pillars to the roof? Not that I plan on flipping the car, but I was told by a PCA scrut that doing so would greatly facilitate repair of a rolled car since one could have a new roof skinned onto the car. Answer: PCA does allow gussets but most other sanctiong bodies do not.
Thanks for any words of wisdom!
Last edited by Mark in Baltimore; 05-03-2007 at 11:22 PM.
05-02-2007, 10:16 AM
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Why would you need NASCAR style door bars on the passenger side? There's no one riding over there in a race. The extra 6-8 inches of impact zone aren't going to do you any good when you already have the entire passenger compartment between yourself and the impact. Even if you want NASCAR on your side of the car, you might as well go with an X for lighter weight and more rigidity on the passenger side to create a more rigid chassis overall.
Ultimately, I'd do an X on both sides and the use some thinner wall (read: lighter) bar to create a "crush zone" outside of the X on the driver side...especially since you aren't running in an unlimited weight class. You'll have the crush bars to absorb the impact and the X to stop the impact before the crush bars can bend into the driver compartment.
As for rumors that sanctioning bodies will mandate NASCAR bars, I haven't heard anything about it.
Surely, if they do, they'll actually outline what a proper design would be rather than allowing people to run a couple VERY curved bars tied together, which hardly constitutes anything approaching NASCAR side impact protection.
I can't comment on the knee bar or the A/B pillars only to say that using more than 6+2 contact points for the cage is rarely allowed in a stock class in any sanctioning body.
Ultimately, I'd do an X on both sides and the use some thinner wall (read: lighter) bar to create a "crush zone" outside of the X on the driver side...especially since you aren't running in an unlimited weight class. You'll have the crush bars to absorb the impact and the X to stop the impact before the crush bars can bend into the driver compartment.
As for rumors that sanctioning bodies will mandate NASCAR bars, I haven't heard anything about it.
Surely, if they do, they'll actually outline what a proper design would be rather than allowing people to run a couple VERY curved bars tied together, which hardly constitutes anything approaching NASCAR side impact protection.I can't comment on the knee bar or the A/B pillars only to say that using more than 6+2 contact points for the cage is rarely allowed in a stock class in any sanctioning body.
05-02-2007, 10:46 AM
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Hey Mark,
It looks like you're fine on the door panel issue with PCA:
NASA has some new rules and the "diagonal" requirement is different from PCA.
It looks like you're fine on the door panel issue with PCA:
NASA has some new rules and the "diagonal" requirement is different from PCA.
05-02-2007, 10:49 AM
#4
Mark,
Let me know when you car is coming to piper, I work near there and would love to meet you and see the car.
As for the cage, I agree partly with bryan, Unless you are going to be instructing why have NASCAR doors on the passengers side? Even then HPDE's are not races so the chances of needing NASCAR bars on the passengers side are greatly diminished. As for the drivers side, I'd say go for it. I love that good NASCAR door bars (like the ones piper will make for you) add a few inches of protection, and really wished i had them on my 944. You seem to be very safety minded, so the safer the cage the better, and I'm sure your car is plenty fast that if ever something goes wrong they might come in handy. As for SCCA or NASA mandating NASCAR door bars, i highly doubt that in the near term, but then again i don't make the rules.
-Ross
Let me know when you car is coming to piper, I work near there and would love to meet you and see the car.
As for the cage, I agree partly with bryan, Unless you are going to be instructing why have NASCAR doors on the passengers side? Even then HPDE's are not races so the chances of needing NASCAR bars on the passengers side are greatly diminished. As for the drivers side, I'd say go for it. I love that good NASCAR door bars (like the ones piper will make for you) add a few inches of protection, and really wished i had them on my 944. You seem to be very safety minded, so the safer the cage the better, and I'm sure your car is plenty fast that if ever something goes wrong they might come in handy. As for SCCA or NASA mandating NASCAR door bars, i highly doubt that in the near term, but then again i don't make the rules.
-Ross
05-02-2007, 11:35 AM
#5
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I put two in on the right to protect any instructors I might ride with in DE (and I ask for or buy as much as I can get). I'll put up with the extra weight to protect the guy in the right seat who's there to help me out.
05-02-2007, 11:53 AM
#7
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Have you given thought to the headliner? I was told by Donna I need one - no matter what. Despite the fact that you can remove door panels or other panels that interfere with the cage. Adding gussets to connect to the roof would make that tough.
I can tell you two things that I'm going to send for feedback on rule changes: Allow for removal of carpets, headliners and anything flammable in stock classes.
I can tell you two things that I'm going to send for feedback on rule changes: Allow for removal of carpets, headliners and anything flammable in stock classes.
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05-02-2007, 12:30 PM
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Bryan - Thanks for your thoughts. I was up until 2:00AM last night poring over threads on cages, so maybe in my bleary state I imagined reading that left and right NASCAR bars would be mandated, but I don't think I fabricated. Of course, now I can' find the damn thread.
Why do I want NASCAR bars? I'm concerned about elbow room with straight X bars that don't go into the door cavity.
Why do I want NASCAR bars on the passenger's side? I do instruct and have passengers and, while car-to-car contact in DE's is very limited, it seems to make sense to provide equal protection to the right side of the car.
Another factor that I wonder about is how much stiffer is an X bar versus a NASCAR bar and whether having a NASCAR bar on the left and a stiffer X bar right would casue an imbalance in rigidity. A few people on this board have commented that X bars are stiffer and lighter, but, really, how much stiffer and lighter are they? 50% stiffer? 10% lighter? Has anyone performed some sort of emiprical test to measure torsion and actual weight that goes beyond conjecture?
I think you're right about the pillar gussets but wanted to hear it from someone else.
Joey - Thanks. The PCA rules only address the driver's side panel and glass: "The removal of driver's side door panels and glass to facilitate side impact protection is allowed in all cases." My question pertains to removal of the passenger side panel and glass, which is not addressed in the rules.
Ross - My car is already there, so take a peek at it. I just dropped it off yesterday. I thought I had everything figured out, but Mitch raised some questions in my mind. Maybe we can meet when I pick it up.
}{ - Yeah, I know. I'm long overdue for this component. There's no going back to selling it as a street car.
Sean - My headliner will stay in, as per the rules. I'd love to ditch it and all of the other plastic and fibrous crap that can catch fire. I understand the spirit of a stock class in that you can race a street car with an interior, but I think PCA should allow stock class drivers to gut the interior. It's not like gutting the interior would give anyone a weight advantage since there are minimum weights to achieve.
These are the type of bars I'm considering. They are obviously not parallel NASCAR bars.
Why do I want NASCAR bars? I'm concerned about elbow room with straight X bars that don't go into the door cavity.
Why do I want NASCAR bars on the passenger's side? I do instruct and have passengers and, while car-to-car contact in DE's is very limited, it seems to make sense to provide equal protection to the right side of the car.
Another factor that I wonder about is how much stiffer is an X bar versus a NASCAR bar and whether having a NASCAR bar on the left and a stiffer X bar right would casue an imbalance in rigidity. A few people on this board have commented that X bars are stiffer and lighter, but, really, how much stiffer and lighter are they? 50% stiffer? 10% lighter? Has anyone performed some sort of emiprical test to measure torsion and actual weight that goes beyond conjecture?
I think you're right about the pillar gussets but wanted to hear it from someone else.
Joey - Thanks. The PCA rules only address the driver's side panel and glass: "The removal of driver's side door panels and glass to facilitate side impact protection is allowed in all cases." My question pertains to removal of the passenger side panel and glass, which is not addressed in the rules.
Ross - My car is already there, so take a peek at it. I just dropped it off yesterday. I thought I had everything figured out, but Mitch raised some questions in my mind. Maybe we can meet when I pick it up.
}{ - Yeah, I know. I'm long overdue for this component. There's no going back to selling it as a street car.
Sean - My headliner will stay in, as per the rules. I'd love to ditch it and all of the other plastic and fibrous crap that can catch fire. I understand the spirit of a stock class in that you can race a street car with an interior, but I think PCA should allow stock class drivers to gut the interior. It's not like gutting the interior would give anyone a weight advantage since there are minimum weights to achieve.
These are the type of bars I'm considering. They are obviously not parallel NASCAR bars.
05-02-2007, 12:48 PM
#11
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These are angled out slightly and do have a slight pyramid shape. John moved the base plates in to create an angle. Let me see if I can find a better picture. I haven't had any elbow troubles. I really like the way I fit in the cage. I feel really secure with the door bars and they don't get in the way. I'm small, so ingress/egress isn't too bad.
05-02-2007, 01:37 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by Mark in Baltimore
I have a few questions about the installation of my Mitch Piper cage and staying in PCA rules compliance. I've recently mailed Donna Amico but have not yet heard back. The cage I am having installed will also be NASA-compliant, should I elect to start doing NASA races, should I get booted out of PCA for a 13/13 or should I just get tired of approaching racing with a full safety approach...and a combustible interior.
At the Road Atlanta race, I had a brief discussion with Donna about cage door bars and deleting the door panels to allow the bars to enter into the door cavity, to which she said, yes, the door panels can be removed to allow this scenario in a stock class car.
However, to clarify, I'd also like to run NASCAR-style door bars on the passenger side of my D-class car, but it will mean having to delete the passenger door panel. I really feel that NASCAR-style bars and the subsequently gutted doors, despite the differing opinions that I've read here on the safety of NASCAR bars versus straight X bars, are going to be mandated by other sanctiong bodies (at least this is what I've been reading from non-NASA and non-SCCA officials). I would very much like to do the job once.
1) Is this against the PCA rules and/or will PCA eventually soon make a change to allow passenger door panel deletion for higher safety reasons?
2) Piper is going to be deleting the stock knee bar to facilitate the cage knee bar installation and to make sure that it is far enough away from my knees if I should have a potential frontal impact. Am I allowed to remove the stock knee bar for this purpose? The PCA rules don't specifically address this deletion.
3) Finally, am I allowed to weld gussets tying the A and B cage pillars to the roof? Not that I plan on flipping the car, but I was told by a PCA scrut that doing so would greatly facilitate repair of a rolled car since one could have a new roof skinned onto the car.
Thanks for any words of wisdom!
At the Road Atlanta race, I had a brief discussion with Donna about cage door bars and deleting the door panels to allow the bars to enter into the door cavity, to which she said, yes, the door panels can be removed to allow this scenario in a stock class car.
However, to clarify, I'd also like to run NASCAR-style door bars on the passenger side of my D-class car, but it will mean having to delete the passenger door panel. I really feel that NASCAR-style bars and the subsequently gutted doors, despite the differing opinions that I've read here on the safety of NASCAR bars versus straight X bars, are going to be mandated by other sanctiong bodies (at least this is what I've been reading from non-NASA and non-SCCA officials). I would very much like to do the job once.
1) Is this against the PCA rules and/or will PCA eventually soon make a change to allow passenger door panel deletion for higher safety reasons?
2) Piper is going to be deleting the stock knee bar to facilitate the cage knee bar installation and to make sure that it is far enough away from my knees if I should have a potential frontal impact. Am I allowed to remove the stock knee bar for this purpose? The PCA rules don't specifically address this deletion.
3) Finally, am I allowed to weld gussets tying the A and B cage pillars to the roof? Not that I plan on flipping the car, but I was told by a PCA scrut that doing so would greatly facilitate repair of a rolled car since one could have a new roof skinned onto the car.
Thanks for any words of wisdom!
I think that selling gutting the passenger side door to install a NASCAR style bar on the passenger side is going to be tough. There is no justification for having it on that side.
I also am not sure what you mean when you say are you "allowed to remove stock knee bar?" AFAIK, you cannot remove any part of the dash, if that is what you refer to.
Piper makes very nice cages. Terry T's looked great.
Nader
05-02-2007, 02:00 PM
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Mark,
Your third picture is an older one of my car. As you can, Mitch was able to achieve a little more elbow room for me and retain the door panel. Yes, I lost the armrest, but it was worth it to get the space. Plus I get to keep the factory window which is nice considering I don't have a enclosed trailer and the car does sit outside at times. On the passenger side I just went with the lower bar with the same contour as the drivers side. The idea was that I could build that side up to mirror the drivers side later on if wanted. For now, it meets spec for the groups I run with and is as easy to get in/out as a normal 944.
Your third picture is an older one of my car. As you can, Mitch was able to achieve a little more elbow room for me and retain the door panel. Yes, I lost the armrest, but it was worth it to get the space. Plus I get to keep the factory window which is nice considering I don't have a enclosed trailer and the car does sit outside at times. On the passenger side I just went with the lower bar with the same contour as the drivers side. The idea was that I could build that side up to mirror the drivers side later on if wanted. For now, it meets spec for the groups I run with and is as easy to get in/out as a normal 944.
05-02-2007, 02:44 PM
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If I could figure out how to get the actual address of a specific rennlist thread I'd post it. But that has proven difficult. If you do a search for my account name, there's a long thread about cage design that I started. It explored most of the common designs out there.
I ended up going with a double nascar bar that was connected to a sill bar. The entire cage was made of 1.75 x 095. It provides exceptional room for arm comfort and is quite beefy. It uses many more tubes than a traditional X brace and is without a doubt heavier. I can't be certain that it is safer and stronger, but my opinion is that it is. This was also the opinion of my cage builder. I asked him what he thought about the pyramidal X and he advised against it (keep in mind, the pyramidal X is easier and cheaper to produce than the nascar bars).
Safety was the primary concern since club racing would be the extent of my super duper race car driver career.
I ended up going with a double nascar bar that was connected to a sill bar. The entire cage was made of 1.75 x 095. It provides exceptional room for arm comfort and is quite beefy. It uses many more tubes than a traditional X brace and is without a doubt heavier. I can't be certain that it is safer and stronger, but my opinion is that it is. This was also the opinion of my cage builder. I asked him what he thought about the pyramidal X and he advised against it (keep in mind, the pyramidal X is easier and cheaper to produce than the nascar bars).
Safety was the primary concern since club racing would be the extent of my super duper race car driver career.
05-02-2007, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by complexx
If I could figure out how to get the actual address of a specific rennlist thread I'd post it. But that has proven difficult. If you do a search for my account name, there's a long thread about cage design that I started. It explored most of the common designs out there.
2) Copy and paste address from the address bar of your browser:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/259343-cage-questions-for-de-car-possible-club-racer-in-near-future.html