PSM/Red Mist/wrecked my baby...should I get a 968?
04-06-2007, 09:30 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by DrJupeman
Huh? People survived for a loooooooong time without PSM. He's not a fool for turning off PSM. Perhaps he was a fool to start learning with PSM on in the first place if he thinks turning it off was a contributing factor to the accident...
when learning on a nice street car..the prioority is not to reck the car
for this reason get a dedicated track car you can afford to trash
04-06-2007, 10:01 PM
#17
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Learning with 4 wheel drive
I have witnessed a number of drivers learning to drive on the track with C4s. In my opinion this is the worst thing anyone can do if they have any interest in true performance driving. I have watched as they finally get their 2 wheel drive track car and can not keep it straight. PSM or not the C4 is not a good learning tool.
I will however agree with the majority here that a 944/951 platform would be a good track/race car. It will be balanced enough to keep you out of the wall when you realize even 5% pulling from the front wheels is a lot.
The 968s are also good but because of the vario-ram motor requires a tad more expertise to get good reliable power from them. There are only a handful of good 968 PCA Club racers. I have raced both the S2s and currently race a 944 turbo in F-class. The S2 is probably the best front engine Porsche ever made without getting into any factory race cars.
It is always true that it is cheaper to buy a race car than to build a race car. As most DE students do they get fast then strip out the interior, lighten the car and after a while decide to go club racing and end up in GT class with a 200 hp car.
So I suggest if you buy a track/racecar you make sure it is as close to stock with all the correct safety equipment as possible to leave your options open. You will be a long time getting every ounce of speed out of these cars without having to enhance them making them weaker and more unreliable.
I am a front running F-class racer and there is still more to get from these cars.
Good luck on your search and oh yeah I would not have put the claim in for a track related incident. We in Massachusetts have long since lost our priveledge of insuring track cars due to the number of claims and when track cars are involved there is always the attempt to get more to make the car better when you fix it.
Just a thought.
I will however agree with the majority here that a 944/951 platform would be a good track/race car. It will be balanced enough to keep you out of the wall when you realize even 5% pulling from the front wheels is a lot.
The 968s are also good but because of the vario-ram motor requires a tad more expertise to get good reliable power from them. There are only a handful of good 968 PCA Club racers. I have raced both the S2s and currently race a 944 turbo in F-class. The S2 is probably the best front engine Porsche ever made without getting into any factory race cars.
It is always true that it is cheaper to buy a race car than to build a race car. As most DE students do they get fast then strip out the interior, lighten the car and after a while decide to go club racing and end up in GT class with a 200 hp car.
So I suggest if you buy a track/racecar you make sure it is as close to stock with all the correct safety equipment as possible to leave your options open. You will be a long time getting every ounce of speed out of these cars without having to enhance them making them weaker and more unreliable.
I am a front running F-class racer and there is still more to get from these cars.
Good luck on your search and oh yeah I would not have put the claim in for a track related incident. We in Massachusetts have long since lost our priveledge of insuring track cars due to the number of claims and when track cars are involved there is always the attempt to get more to make the car better when you fix it.
Just a thought.
04-06-2007, 10:15 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
I've been tracking/racing a 968 since 1999 and I highly recommend them. They make fantastic track cars, and are very competitive in the classes in which they race. When you're ready to race you'll have a choice between PCA F class, NASA GTS, and 944 Supercup.
Don't listen to they guys talking about difficulty finding spares. I never have any trouble. It sounds like you need a dedicated track car to learn with. A 968 can fill that role perfectly, but if $$$ are tight there are cheper cars out there that will do just as well. Older 944s, Miatas and others mentioned in this thread are good examples.
Don't listen to they guys talking about difficulty finding spares. I never have any trouble. It sounds like you need a dedicated track car to learn with. A 968 can fill that role perfectly, but if $$$ are tight there are cheper cars out there that will do just as well. Older 944s, Miatas and others mentioned in this thread are good examples.
04-06-2007, 10:26 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I echo what Jim has said. My 968 was my first P-car and I have progressed it to a full track car at this point. There are many parts in common with 944's and it is new enough to have ABS. Look at the results from PCA and NASA and you will see a fair number of 968's in the top finishes for their total number that were imported (~3000 coupes in US).
Mike
Mike
04-06-2007, 10:29 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
I think the hardest / most expensive 'spares' you will have finding for the 968 are the cylinder head and the two cam's. If you take care of the car, neither of which will ever be a problem. I guess you can throw the crank shaft up on that list also. If you really want to scrutinize, the 3.0L block isnt exactly dime a dozen either. But again, unless you have some catastrophic engine failure i wouldnt worry about it. A good portion of that catastrophic engine failure can be avoided with maitenance and preparation for its life as a track car.
Other than that, i cant think of anything else that is really hard to find for a 968. Maybe hubs with the ABS ring....but you will have the same problem finding those for a S2 or 951 equipped with ABS.
Other than that, i cant think of anything else that is really hard to find for a 968. Maybe hubs with the ABS ring....but you will have the same problem finding those for a S2 or 951 equipped with ABS.
04-06-2007, 10:42 PM
#21
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968 track car
Hey Jim you were one of the handful I was refering to in my thread.
I look forward to seeing you at Mid-Ohio next month.
I am Hankook sponsored driver now and run the new Z214s. They were a hot set up at Atlanta last weekend. I hope they as good at Mid-Ohio.
Let's hope we have a dry race weekend.
Steve Boris
F-class 944t
Hankook #85
I look forward to seeing you at Mid-Ohio next month.
I am Hankook sponsored driver now and run the new Z214s. They were a hot set up at Atlanta last weekend. I hope they as good at Mid-Ohio.
Let's hope we have a dry race weekend.
Steve Boris
F-class 944t
Hankook #85
04-06-2007, 11:14 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by teamNortheast
I am Hankook sponsored driver now and run the new Z214s. They were a hot set up at Atlanta last weekend. I hope they as good at Mid-Ohio.
04-07-2007, 12:13 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by Techno Duck
Other than that, i cant think of anything else that is really hard to find for a 968. Maybe hubs with the ABS ring....but you will have the same problem finding those for a S2 or 951 equipped with ABS.
A setup 968 is a wonderful track car. If I didin't have a turbo already, I would have gone down either the S2 or 968 route instead.
04-07-2007, 12:33 AM
#24
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Originally Posted by RonCT
Sure people got by without PSM, and seat belts and ABS, etc. He's driving a $50,000 street car on the track with only 6 DEs. He talked about turning it on and off - so which is it? If he permanently disabled it when he got the car and learned its every nuance in street driving cold, hot, wet, etc. then I'd see your point.
Most (if not all) chapter instructors want PSM on until the driver is say solo and in White. We had a discussion about this recently at a PCA DE Workshop. Why not let a student learn the basics, like the line, throttle / brake transition, vehicle dynamics, etc. before starting to turn off PSM, remove the ABS fuse, go on R-comps, etc.?
I don't understand why some people are averse to electronic controls and aids. Even F1 cars have Traction Control.
PSM can be a very good teaching tool because it's like an old-school teacher standing behind you ready to smack you on the knuckles if you aren't smooth enough.
Most (if not all) chapter instructors want PSM on until the driver is say solo and in White. We had a discussion about this recently at a PCA DE Workshop. Why not let a student learn the basics, like the line, throttle / brake transition, vehicle dynamics, etc. before starting to turn off PSM, remove the ABS fuse, go on R-comps, etc.?
I don't understand why some people are averse to electronic controls and aids. Even F1 cars have Traction Control.
PSM can be a very good teaching tool because it's like an old-school teacher standing behind you ready to smack you on the knuckles if you aren't smooth enough.
Racing with the electronics is not bad, but learning to drive at race pace with them is ..
04-07-2007, 02:23 AM
#25
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Scott, thank you for your input. You guys are great.
I think of my experience like the "day-traders" in the late 1990's. Many folks confused brains with a bull market and I have confused ability with a great car where the PSM took care of my flaws.
Several folks recommended that I take "my training wheels off" and switch off the PSM. I wasn't ready. Its completely my fault for what happened, but we should cover this topic at the May event so others won't find themselves in my situation. You guys can feel free to use me as an example of what NOT to do.
It reminded me of what I irst learned...which is focus on smooth and not focus on speed.
btw..$2500 of the damage is the headlight, which doesn't really need replacing in my opinion..its a barely noticeable scratch.
I should be ready to roll by May.
I think of my experience like the "day-traders" in the late 1990's. Many folks confused brains with a bull market and I have confused ability with a great car where the PSM took care of my flaws.
Several folks recommended that I take "my training wheels off" and switch off the PSM. I wasn't ready. Its completely my fault for what happened, but we should cover this topic at the May event so others won't find themselves in my situation. You guys can feel free to use me as an example of what NOT to do.
It reminded me of what I irst learned...which is focus on smooth and not focus on speed.
btw..$2500 of the damage is the headlight, which doesn't really need replacing in my opinion..its a barely noticeable scratch.
I should be ready to roll by May.
04-07-2007, 08:56 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by RonCT
Sure people got by without PSM, and seat belts and ABS, etc. He's driving a $50,000 street car on the track with only 6 DEs. He talked about turning it on and off - so which is it? If he permanently disabled it when he got the car and learned its every nuance in street driving cold, hot, wet, etc. then I'd see your point.
Most (if not all) chapter instructors want PSM on until the driver is say solo and in White. We had a discussion about this recently at a PCA DE Workshop. Why not let a student learn the basics, like the line, throttle / brake transition, vehicle dynamics, etc. before starting to turn off PSM, remove the ABS fuse, go on R-comps, etc.?
I don't understand why some people are averse to electronic controls and aids. Even F1 cars have Traction Control.
PSM can be a very good teaching tool because it's like an old-school teacher standing behind you ready to smack you on the knuckles if you aren't smooth enough.
Most (if not all) chapter instructors want PSM on until the driver is say solo and in White. We had a discussion about this recently at a PCA DE Workshop. Why not let a student learn the basics, like the line, throttle / brake transition, vehicle dynamics, etc. before starting to turn off PSM, remove the ABS fuse, go on R-comps, etc.?
I don't understand why some people are averse to electronic controls and aids. Even F1 cars have Traction Control.
PSM can be a very good teaching tool because it's like an old-school teacher standing behind you ready to smack you on the knuckles if you aren't smooth enough.
Your comment about "most chapter instructors wanting PSM on until the driver is solo and white" is EXACTLY what I think is wrong. Let the person learn on a crutch with an instructor and then once they are driving by themselves let them learn how to drive closer to the limit while they are alone? Huh? For an environment that is supposed to be about teaching people how to drive, I do not understand that logic at all.
I am perfectly fine with folks using PSM on the track if they think it will help them save their $50k car from a mistake. Hey, I left DSC on in my 330i when I took it to the Nordschleife. But to say that turning it off was the cause of the accident is to ignore something in the way that student was taught to drive.
Simply: if the first time you turn PSM off you crash, you were not ready to solo. Someone didn't teach you more than the basics. Perhaps too many instructors are using PSM as a crutch in their instruction...
04-07-2007, 09:36 AM
#27
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What's a good DE car is a very personal question. It has no best answer. As for me, I think the right car is one you can financially throw away if need be.
For me, that limit is an old 911. For others, it's a late model GT3.
For me, that limit is an old 911. For others, it's a late model GT3.
04-07-2007, 09:45 AM
#28
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Dr. J
I am with you on the PSM issue, but PCA national has mandated instructors suggest leaving it "on" as of 2007. Policy for the DE program. How invasive did you find the DSC on your 330 at the ring? It was too disruptive on throttle for me on the ring, but I already had 60 plus laps before driving our 330i during hot laps. Even in the rain, it was a little much.
I am with you on the PSM issue, but PCA national has mandated instructors suggest leaving it "on" as of 2007. Policy for the DE program. How invasive did you find the DSC on your 330 at the ring? It was too disruptive on throttle for me on the ring, but I already had 60 plus laps before driving our 330i during hot laps. Even in the rain, it was a little much.
04-07-2007, 09:48 AM
#29
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1: Once PSM was turned off, you should have had an instructor. PSM-on and PSM-off is in essence 2 different drivetrains. You'd done the same going from FWD to RWD. /rantoff/
2: Maybe start at the lower end and find a prepared 944. You will absolutely learn to drive... no PSM. no ABS, no HP. Could lead to some Spec racing too.
If you are willing to throw down $20k, then maintenance may not be an issue. But for the cost of that headlight and fender repair, you can find a street 944 to mess with.
2: Maybe start at the lower end and find a prepared 944. You will absolutely learn to drive... no PSM. no ABS, no HP. Could lead to some Spec racing too.
If you are willing to throw down $20k, then maintenance may not be an issue. But for the cost of that headlight and fender repair, you can find a street 944 to mess with.
04-07-2007, 09:59 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by bobt993
Dr. J
I am with you on the PSM issue, but PCA national has mandated instructors suggest leaving it "on" as of 2007. Policy for the DE program. How invasive did you find the DSC on your 330 at the ring? It was too disruptive on throttle for me on the ring, but I already had 60 plus laps before driving our 330i during hot laps. Even in the rain, it was a little much.
I am with you on the PSM issue, but PCA national has mandated instructors suggest leaving it "on" as of 2007. Policy for the DE program. How invasive did you find the DSC on your 330 at the ring? It was too disruptive on throttle for me on the ring, but I already had 60 plus laps before driving our 330i during hot laps. Even in the rain, it was a little much.
My experience with all stability control systems to date, PSM or DSC, is that they are too invasive for me. The DSC in my 330 is far better than the PSM that was in my 2001 Boxster S, which I could out drive. I was happy to use DSCt at the Nordschleife, though, since I had never been there before and the track was a bit wet. I would have driven in those conditions without it with no hesitation, though.