Michael Marshall

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by mark kibort:
<strong>Cort wagner ran 1:26 in a R5 car??? no slicks?? I dont think he will run much faster than most of the top POC drivers in the same car. what is up with that R5 car anyway. 1:26 is pretty darn quick.
mk</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yep, On Hoosiers and I'm not surprised at all. Don't you think there's probably a good reason he gets paid the big bucks to do this for a living and most of the top POC club drivers pay the big bucks to do this. Sure, there are alot of talented people who drive in the POC, but other then the tribute, when the Professional big guys come out to play, Most regardless of how much money they have spent on their cars and how much ego we all have, are Club Racers and that's all.

Also, you mentioned Laguna Seca earlier. the Speed Vision cars are/were on a on a street Toyo tire. Glancing at the Speed challenge site, If I'm reading it right, it says M3's had to weigh about 2700 pounds,Z06 vettes had to weigh 3000 pounds, and Porsche cup cars had to weigh 2900 lbs. Thats alot of weight to be racing around on street tires and probably one of the reasons they are using the R compoound tires this year. I'm not surprised that people were getting around the track faster then them. I think this year running R compound tires will make a huge difference in times, especially for the high horsepower cars.

Reagarding Your on paper buildup of a 240 RWHP car that could legally be built and weigh 2200 lbs.(within the rules allowed for R5) Build it,show me the weight and the dyno numbers, have it broken down and pass tech and then I will beleive it can be done. Until then, we will just have to agree to disagree. I'm still trying to figure out how a stock 3.2 with just headers and alittle intake work is making 240 RWHP, what's that like 275 at the flywheel, If you've built a motor with that kind of power, with those mods, you should open up a shop or start selling parts because you will make a fortune. I'm serious, I'll be the first one in line.

I'm also surprised that you've had two stock 3.2 Carrera motors dyno at 210 at the wheels when an 84 Carrera motor wasnt rated that high at the flywheel from the factory. Were they Euro spec motors, that I might beleive. I think maybe owners of stock 3.2 motors should have you tune them up because apparently everyone I know is doing something wrong if you getting 210 RWHP out of a BONE STOCK 3.2. For example, Heres a post from a guy currently posting on Pelican who is getting 217 RWHP with mods:
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I'm sorta jumping the gun here - I forgot to bring the dyno printout to work, I haven't scanned it yet, and I can't remember the torque figure... But, man, I just can't wait to share.

Last night I had my newly rebuilt 3.2 dyno'd at 217rwhp. With standard drivetrain loss of 15%, that translates to 249 flywheel hp. YAHOOOOO!!! I'm very pleased.

The amazing part is that I started out the evening with only 167rwhp with the car in its "unchipped" state. It went from 167 to 217 with only the reprogramming of the Motronic. That's an increase of, um, 50 HORSEPOWER!! The guys at Bauer added a Dastek UNICHIP piggyback computer and tuned the program on the dyno. Granted, there was a lot of upside potential due to the cams being mismatched to the stock chip. But wow, I was still surprised.

Here's my setup:
- I rebuilt the engine 1K miles ago with everything stock, except:
- C2 cam regrind
- mildly ported heads
- twice-milled heads (compression increase?)
- K&N cone filter
- Fabspeed premuffler
- Dansk dual-out sport muffler
- OE aluminum pressure plate (normally cast iron on an '84)
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That above rebuild that just yielded him 217 RWHP would cost me, 4 points for cams, 5 points for head porting, 4 points for uping the CR, and an additional 4 points for the piggyback chip. Thats an additional 17 points for 217RWHP. Obviously some of that stuff could have maybe have been done differently, but the points are gonna add up.He should have called you and got your header and intake setup, he would have made a whole lot more power <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I don't underestimate Liteweight and Power at all. But I also dont underestimate a well tuned suspension and all that that includes as well as a competant driver behind the wheel. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

BTW, Regarding Steve Vandecar, I was talking to him on the phone last night and he said it was interesting because even when he lightened his car,got rid of the big HP motor and ran slicks, his times only changed about .5 seconds give or take from when he was running heavy but with big power.

Edited to add post regarding rebuild

Michael Marshall

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Chris Campbell:
)[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I could possibly have been misinformed, but I "heard" that Steve (Alarcon) and Kevin (Roush) were both protested...and subsequently had to tear down and re-point their cars. Both were underweight and overpowered for V3/R5 in 2002. Cheers,[/QB][/QUOTE]

Chris,

One other thing to add to what I said earlier, If you are found to be illegal when they tear down your motor, it's on your dime to put it back together. If you are legal the club pays for it. I was told that Roush's car was 100% legal with the only question being whether his side skirts were an Aero device or not. If he's changed his car for 2003, based on how he's done the first two races of this year, it has not slowed him down at all. He's the guy to catch and right now he's the best driver.(I'm just watching from back in the pack)

pig4bill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by JackOlsen:
<strong>Okay, my street car isn't 100% stock. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You got windshield clips this year?

mark kibort

Anderson and I were running street toyos in the speedvision GT races at Laguna. Anderson was very very clost to a car with Boris Said driving a 550hp saleen mustang. Im sure Cort wagner and boris are on the same playing field. Im also sure that Anderson and I with simular equip can run as fast. I was 100lbs heavier, 100-150hp down and only 3 seconds behind both of them. Most of the differences of the top pros in World challenge is not so much the driving talent for lap times, its the decision making during the race, and skills when things go wrong. Along with making the equip last!!! pure lap times are not owned by the best drivers in my opinion. Kevin was not the best driver at laguna POC, however, his car was!! (kevin was good, but he hadnt had much seat time there). All of the top POc drivers are very good and are quick learners as by what I saw at thunderhill their first time there. (not too often a club visits a new track) for me , it was a home track, so I could give some good observations!.

Going to Thunderhill in 12 hours!!!!

Oh yeah , stock 911s were 200 to 210 rear wheel. Im sorry that guy only got 217 at the wheels, but he had a cam and intake ported. big deal . ive seen no gains for this kind of mod. did he have headers???? RACING headers can do wonders. 20hp is not uncommon. ive also heard of many 200hp+ 911s of the C2 vintage. So, what, Porsche underated this model!!! 200hp is like 240 flywheel!!

anyway, porsche didnt over rate the 928, which ive own 4 of them and raced and built them all.
200hp withe headers for a car rated at 246 at the factory. (but it did have 100k miles on it before we started tracking it)

mk

MK

Michael Marshall

Anderson is a great driver, with a better platform for racing I sure he would extremely competative.

I really can't say if you could run as fast as Boris Said with similiar equipment. If you really think that you can, maybe you should try to lend out your services to some of the professional teams looking for a driver, or buy a seat in a good car at Daytona and Sebring so you can get noticed. Maybe you could talk with Billy Auberlan and see if you could help you get a factory ride with BMW. If your that good, You probably have alot of options. Good luck to you.

Michael Kaidbey

I had to jump into this interesting discussion after reading all this stuff. . .
I have been racing in the POC and with Michael Marshall since 1997 (Michael and I started the same DAY!!)
The thing that I have learned is that the guys you have mentioned in this discussion are very capable drivers,
They also are able to tune their cars for a particular situation or track which most of us don’t do from one track to the next.
(At least I don’t).
The other point I have is that since Willow is our home track (for the POC) we are all measured by how we perform there,
And some of us don’t do as well at willow as we do other places. There are guys that run 2 sec faster than me at willow that I run just as fast as or faster than on other tracks.
So what a car can run at willow is not necessarily what a driver can!! The reverse might also be true, due to familiarity with a car..
In terms of the HP issue I don’t think you can make 240 RWHP out of a STOCK 3.2 no matter what headers you put on it.
That number might be true at the flywheel.
I hope that Jack doesn’t take Michael up on his offer of running 125s, at least not yet.
BTW Jack the car looks great.

mark kibort

AMEN about Willowsprings. Very very unique track.
I usually run neck and neck with Alarcon, Vandecar , etc, at other tracks with my 800lb heavier bone stock engine'nd 928, but at willow, its all bets are off. you have to really know your cars grip holding at very high speed on turn 8-9. This is why Mark Anderson when he hires pros to drive his car to get imput and improve the platform, he runs much faster than they do. However, he does gain valuable information (sometimes) most of the time, they come back and say, ("undrivable!"). Yes, mark is a very good driver. I think with the same car I could run simular times.(not at willow springs though!) I though I had him at Sears Point, even with 100less hp, and 100lbs more weight, i was able to better his time, until this last PCA race. However, this time he did have goodyear slicks (335s all the way around, and it was his 3rd weekend there,and he is a quick study) He also beat a lot of Kelly Moss hardware, and was neck and neck with the Excellence magazine featured GT3RS carbon fiber body monster. As far as pro rides for me..... yeah, they are just lining up for 40+ year old up and comers!!!!! There are a lot of great drivers out there . I would love a shot, but the only way is to invest you life into the touring World challenge and win season after season or until you get noticed. Mark Kirberg, a club guy I would often rally and sometimes beat in lesser or equal cars, won rookie of the year last World challenge season, he beat some big names at the only new track in the series. I dont think anyone noticed!!
If they did, they havent offered him anything yet!!

As far as the hp 911 discussion, i have 3 dyno runs that show the 911 with 200-210hp to the wheels , with no mods. (210 had a cat too, but better mufflers) if you cant find 30hp in a set of racing headers and a chip/cam/intake, you arent trying hard enough. worst case, I would think a set of racing headers would add 15 to 20rear wheel hp. even my 210 measured, would equal close to 245 flywheelhp. sure, the car is rated at 200flywheel, but they make more... what can I say. ive tested a few of them!!

I just saw one of the PRC guys that is putting down 338 at the flwheel out of a 3.4 bottom end. He has really built up this thing, but the funny thing, its now GT3 in PCA rules!!!

With some good engine building, and flow work, on the heads, there is no reason why a 3.2 cant produce proportional hp to its size reduction. especially, since the E30M3 guys are putting down 220-230rwhp out of a 2.5 liter 4 banger, with the use of the little AFM!!!!!! (ie Warren, Matesso, Stillman,Cervatas,Chang,solooman)

MK