mark kibort

Mike, sounds like jacks car has some of the extras!! Heck, my car is a "street" car too. And I have NO mods to the engine at all, just headers. at 2700lbs now, it is a pretty fast car at tracks up here. probably a 1:30ish at willow as it stands today, with hoosiers. (1:41ish at lagna seca)

As far as Vandecar, and alarcon (as well as webber, Roush), I was at the scales!!! 2280 for Alarcon,and he was saying he could still loose 50lbs more and still be in R5, so dont talk to me about those guys not having HP and low weight. Vandecars 2001 car was 245 hp rear wheel. now, he put on the stock CIS injection so he estimates over 200hp rear wheel, but he now can run full race slicks (extra points, and a trade off for the cis induction change) Net effect, he's running the same times now!!

Ive run with Alarcon and Vandecar for years now, and I know their driving and car potentals. Ive been pentalized with unfair class weight for the 928 as the POC forgets that its more than just HP /weight ratios that make a car fast. (ingoring driver) at 1000lbs heavier, I have to stop and corner which can be more than the time you are at WOT.

anyway, These 3 cars have tremendous straight line power. webber drove around me at laguna down the straight, like I was sitting still. He ran a 1:39 at Laguna, a time that is faster than ANY of the worlds best drivers in a heck of a lot better equipment on street tires.!!( derek bell, randy pobst,galati, cunningham, auberlin, etc ) Webber/roush went around me faster than the 550hp vets in Speedvision!!! Yes, 2200lbs and some change is his weight. next time you are in the Orange group race, sit by the scales!!!

The guys that really move are at that same weight and have 290 rear wheel, like chris burns 993 and slicks running 1:25s at willow. by the the way, a good Z1 time for POC would be sub 1:21s like the GT3RS

I followed Alarcon at a new track for him (t-hill) and he was off track 4 times (4 wheels off) and I still had a hard time getting around him. the car is that light and that powerful. Sure, at a home track like Willow, he will dip into the
1:29s

remember, If I can get 210rear wheel out of a bone stock 911 3.2, I think a highly tuned 3.0 or a modifided 3.2 to the limits of the rules can approach 230-240hp. its all money, right!!??
Kevin Roush is not a stock 3.2, or it certanly wasnt when I saw him last year at laguna!! His engine was FAR from stock!!!! (also 2200lbs and change)

(as a note, the POC stock weight for euro 3.0 carrera, is 2513lbs. with taking no points, minus production wieght allowances 145, gas 120, and you see its 2250lbs!!! and thats with no points taken for weight. This means all mods can be made to engine!! (and thats 10points, you could increase by 500cc displacement, and big brakes, or any number of big mods to make that kind of car REALLY fast)

MK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Michael Marshall:
<strong>Mark

Jack is not really telling you the whole story with his car.It is very modified. Since you are familiar with the classification of some of the POC cars, I will use that has an example. In POC Jacks suspension mods and engine set back, along with his tranny mods and tire size would put him in Z2/R1. The reality is remove all the carpet(and AC) and it's a full fledge race car. As far as the power of that 3.6, the winner of the tribute to lemans a few years ago, won it with a stock 3.6 motor, it was a 993 motor with headers, but it was stock. I do think 215 RWHP is a low rating however, not to mention how much more torque a 3.6 has over any other stock 911 motor.

For comparison the fast R1 cars are all pretty much running sub 125's at willow springs. So I know Jacks car is capable of sub 130's. The question is whether Jack is ready to run sub 130's, The jump from 133's to sub 130's is obviously only a little over three seconds on a stopwatch, but in the car it will feel like alot more. Be careful!

Also, you mention Alarcon and Vandecar's car earlier, I am in the same race class as them and I know for a fact their cars are not putting out 240 RWHP and they both weight more then 2300lbs. They are both just top notch drivers. Kevin Rouchs car, which is the car to catch this year, runs a bone stock 3.2 and he has run 128.xx

Michael Marshall</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">

mark kibort

stock 993 winning Tribute to Lemans??? last couple of years its been "stock" porsche factory GT3RS or a 650hp twin turbo monster 993 fiberglassed body, money pit. I hardly think a cup car is even "stock" , do you ? I could be wrong, but a few years ago a stock engined 993 didnt win tribute. I dont know what the fastest time for a stock engined 993 with headers is, but i would bet its not much under 1:27. certainly, that has not ever been in recent years to win tribute. (even if the leaders had to make extra pit stops, and take penalties!!)

let me know if Im wrong, id be interested to see who has run a 993 that fast!!
MK

mk

Michael Marshall

Mark

Maybe you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that a stock 993 won the tribute. I said a basically stock 993 powered car won the tribute.When Carlos Granados won the Tribute(I think maybe 1999 or 2000) his car had basically a stock 993 motor in it,The motor had a reprogrammed motronic box, larger injectors but it used the factory Motronic fuel injection and engine management system.It was putting out a little over 300 horsies. Everything else about the car was far from stock, call him and ask him. The next year the car won again with a differant owner and I think different engine.

Regarding the horsepower issue, I will bet you a beer at the balcony that there is no front running car in R5 that is putting out more then 240RWHP.I agree it can be done easily within the rules,but not if your 2200lbs it cant. The last time Kevin and Steve Alarcon went to the dyno their motors werent putting out 240RWHP.

I will also bet you another beer that Steves(Alarcon)car right now weights alot more then 2280 lbs. If it doesnt then it is too light for R5. heck, the minimun I can run my early car is 2170 production weight and if I did I would be too light to run in R5, as it is, in order to stay in R5, i have to weight 2444. You are correct about the stock weight of a euro 3.0,but the production weight is 2368. anything less then that and you are taking points. I'm running a stock 3.2 and have the same suspension and rim and tire setup as Alarcon. I know of several R5 guys who have to add weight in order to stay in R5. Not to mention I find it hard the beleive that an SC car with full interior and a roll bar even with F/g bumpers would come in that light. This year he his finally running a full cage so that alone will make him heavier.

I currently race a R5 car in the orange group and I think I'm pretty familiar with what it takes to have a car in R5 legally. I dont believe there is any way that you can have a 2200 lb car and 240 rwhp in R5 and be legal. If you do, please show me the recipe and I'll try to get that together before the Orange group race at the end of the month.

Also I didn't mention what a good Z1 time was, I mentioned what guys running Z2 were. I mentioned the slower times to suggest that Jacks car which is basically a Z2 car should easily be able to run sub 130's on slicks.

Michael Marshall

BTW, nice web site.

JackOlsen

Okay, my street car isn't 100% stock.

mark kibort

which website?? your little page is pretty nice. Have I seen that car at a POC laguna orange race??? pics look like a non POC weekend event at laguna.

mk

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Michael Marshall:
<strong>BTW, nice web site.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">

mark kibort

Michael, I was at the scales at Laguna, his weight and so was Kevin's were right around 2280lbs. Again, according to the rules, he was joking that he had 50lbs more he could drop.

NO front running car at 240hp? well, what about Vandecars car?? he was putting 245 hp to the wheels, before he detuned it to take the points in slicks. (by going back to original CIS)

also, you mention production weight for the euro 3.0 of 2368, but thats with full tank!! call it 100lbs for the tank, so thats 2268, right??? (weight is measured coming off the track, no driver, and a couple of gallons of gas)
You and Alarcon at 2444, minus the gas is 2324. 2points and you are 2275!!!!! thats Light!!!!!

If you want to run POC R5 with 2350lbs and 240rear wheel hp, here is how. put on some racing headers on a 3.2 and a very nice intake, there is your 240hp. (remember, we are getting 210 to the rear wheels stock on a 3.2 '84 with a cat!) weight is 2491- 150lbs with 4points taken for weight. and you still have 6 points more to do WHATEVER you want to the engine that takes 6points. (In fact, want to bore it or stroke it to a 3.6 liter, thas only 8points) However, keeping it at 2350lbs, you could port and polish with big valves for 5points, completely change the induction system including runners for 4points, or take additional weight 100lbs 4points.

anyway, my choice, if I owned a 3.0 (10 less base points) , would be 2280lbs, 3.4 liter, big valve heads, big runners, with custom intake sytem and big brakes!! all would be R5, and you dont think a custom 3.4 liter big valve , big intake engine with custom racing headers cant make 240hp, you have to stop shopping at Kragens!!!!

anyway, the point is, plenty of HP can be made with the older 3.0 to get above 200rear wheel and still run R5 (ie Webber,Kevin, alarcon, vandecar) the 944 turboS driven by M. Vesper, is over 300at the rear wheels and those start at 2700lbs empty!

Ill take that beer after I see you at the scales, and you better be taking us all on with my tips on how to make a 240hp 2250lb R5 car!!!

mk
(still 3200lbs empty at 300rear wheel hp POC R5 ! In protest!!) try and stop and corner with 5 extra male passengers in your car, with only 100hp more!!!! 1000lbs heavier!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Michael Marshall:
<strong>Mark

Regarding the horsepower issue, I will bet you a beer at the balcony that there is no front running car in R5 that is putting out more then 240RWHP.I agree it can be done easily within the rules,but not if your 2200lbs it cant. The last time Kevin and Steve Alarcon went to the dyno their motors werent putting out 240RWHP.

I will also bet you another beer that Steves(Alarcon)car right now weights alot more then 2280 lbs. If it doesnt then it is too light for R5. heck, the minimun I can run my early car is 2170 production weight and if I did I would be too light to run in R5, as it is, in order to stay in R5, i have to weight 2444. You are correct about the stock weight of a euro 3.0,but the production weight is 2368. anything less then that and you are taking points. I'm running a stock 3.2 and have the same suspension and rim and tire setup as Alarcon. I know of several R5 guys who have to add weight in order to stay in R5. Not to mention I find it hard the beleive that an SC car with full interior and a roll bar even with F/g bumpers would come in that light. This year he his finally running a full cage so that alone will make him heavier.

I currently race a R5 car in the orange group and I think I'm pretty familiar with what it takes to have a car in R5 legally. I dont believe there is any way that you can have a 2200 lb car and 240 rwhp in R5 and be legal. If you do, please show me the recipe and I'll try to get that together before the Orange group race at the end of the month.

Also I didn't mention what a good Z1 time was, I mentioned what guys running Z2 were. I mentioned the slower times to suggest that Jacks car which is basically a Z2 car should easily be able to run sub 130's on slicks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">

Michael Marshall

Mark,

When Steves Vandecars car was dynoing at 247 hp it weighed 2,611 lbs.

What your saying sounds good but the fact is intil I see a dyno of a 3.2 putting out 240 horsepower to the rear wheels, I repeat to the rear wheels, with just headers and a nice intake, I wont beleive it. Can a 3.0 or 3.2 make 240 RWHP sure, but not with out adding cams, (4 points) raising the compression (5 points) what exactly is a nice intake, if you change it, that would be a modification and that would cost you 4 points. wanna change to carbs (4 points). If you end up taking the points in the motor you wont have them to take in weight.

Also if you make it a 3.6, again what cams are you going to use, what induction and again what about compression.if you make it a 3.6 you will probably change the fuel management and make it crank fire. add another 6 points for that.

In the example of what you would do with a 3.0
The base points would be 18,(if its a Euro 81-83 you start with 28) then you would have to add a minimum of 13 production points,(what size tires are you using, if they are bigger then 8 and 9's your over the minimum of 13 production)Now you at at least 31 points. just by making it a 3.4 thats an additional 8 points. changing the valves thats 5 points, changing the intake is another 4 points, now add the big brakes you want and thats another 4 points. now your over 51 and you havent added for the bigger wing, which is another 2 points. Also hopefully you didnt change the compression because thats another 5 points. Well now you are over 51 and your V2, fine you can buy back some weigh but your not 2280 lbs anymore.

The key is doing it legally. Sure some of those things you mentioned can be done on the sly, but they can't be done legally.

Steves Alarcon's car production weight is 2406 after he bought back 2 points for weight, his minimum weight after a race and being completely empty is 2275. So 2280 at the end of a race sounds about right. he bought back 4 points for increased displacement,2 points for leading edge rear wing,1 point for rear coil overs and two points for weight. That maxes him out at 51 points when you add his production points and base points. I dont see anywhere there where his motor could put out 240 RWHP, not a chance.

I'm not understanding how your adding up your points. I also dont think your taking into account the points you have to add for the production modifications.

Neal K Wright

I saw Roush's car on the scale at Buttonwillow on 3/8 and it weighed 2330. He commented that he was 30 lbs heavy. It was also balanced very well, had big rubber, huge wing, front splitters, and side aero pods. All legal items when you start out with whatever early lightweight platform his is.

Roush, Vandecar, and Alacron are all very good drivers and will always have an advantage in their 911 platform over any water pumpers. The main reason is the weight they can legally run and the return on their points. For example ,a cam upgrade in the 911 will likely have a greater performance impact in a 6cyl 911 than it will in a 944 but the points taken are the same. I would imagine a comp increase will as well. That's just the way it is with the POC.

The main point here is that I saw the weight of Roush's car at 2330. Just my $.02

Neal K Wright

Oh, back to the main question "What's a good time at Willow on street tires?"

A good time at Willow, or any other track, on street or any other tires is when your ride lasts all weekend, you improved your driving, you had a good race, had some "man that was really fun" talk after the race with the competitors and didn't have a nasty hangover!

That's always a good time!

Chris Campbell

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by mark kibort:
<strong>Michael, I was at the scales at Laguna, his weight and so was Kevin's were right around 2280lbs. Again, according to the rules, he was joking that he had 50lbs more he could drop.

NO front running car at 240hp? well, what about Vandecars car?? he was putting 245 hp to the wheels, before he detuned it to take the points in slicks. (by going back to original CIS)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I could possibly have been misinformed, but I "heard" that Steve (Alarcon) and Kevin (Roush) were both protested...and subsequently had to tear down and re-point their cars. Both were underweight and overpowered for V3/R5 in 2002. Again, just what I heard thru the POC grapevine, but I think the disparaties in the results illustrate something other than just pure driver skill...there are LOTS of very skilled drivers in the POC who had trouble keeping up with a handful of the guys in the most competitive classes.

Still, it is clear that the V3/R5 cars are easily capable of sub-30 times at Willow, and Jack's car will be too, sooner or later (remember it was just built a couple weeks ago!)

Heck, I'll be happy if I can consistently run sub-40's and ecstatic when I break 35's! I'm deliberately staying out of the "big gun" battles...V4/R6 for me.

Cheers,

Michael Marshall

Chris

You are right, both cars were torn down. Kevins had a stock 3.2 in it that was not even fresh and Steves car was deemed to be illegal due to very slightly high compression. Not even high enough to worry about really.

Hey V4/R6 is the Orange run group so you'll be in the battle whether you want to not I know my car is capable of running sub 130's but It will be work. I dont have nearly the power of Jacks car, nor the wheel and tire. The reality is Jacks car wont be running hard intil it's running sub 125's.

Initially when I posted about weight I was thinking about starting weight. Im Actually not surprised about the weight of Steves car or that Kevins car weighed 2390. My car at the end of a race can't weigh any less then 2309lbs. My whole point to Mark is not really that you can't run R5 and weigh less then 2300lbs, but that your not gonna be able to be less then 2300 lbs and still be able to build a motor that is putting out 240 RWHP. With a bone stock 3.2, I am maxed out at 51 points the limit for V3, so any upgrades I could make to my motor to make more power would put me in V2.

JackOlsen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Michael Marshall:
<strong>The reality is Jacks car wont be running hard intil it's running sub 125's.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Man, Mike, I get just a little wind puffed up in my sails, and you raise the bar even higher.

Sub 125's?

128's, maybe. Lower with slicks, possibly. But then I think weight would have to go, and possibly turbo trailing arms and adjustable shocks...

I'll admit that driver's skill is still the biggest frontier. I'm going to try to get Cary Eisenlohr behind the wheel of it at some point. If anyone can get it south of 27, he could.

Michael Marshall

Jack

I have no doubt Cary could get your car south of the 125's once everything is dialed in. Cort Wagner drove Scott Brinks V3/R5 Carrera with a 3.2, 126's at Willow Springs. His car is running basically the same wheel and tire size and suspension setup as me and dynoyed at like 215 RWHP. That was with Hoosiers.

mark kibort

Again, Steve V, Alarcon, Keven, etc, are all really talented drivers. I would go bumper to bumper with all of them , except Alarcon, for his blocking tendancies, any day of the week.

As I said, Alarcon was un able to pass even with him not knowing a track (thunderhill) as his power was tremendous. he was 4 wheels off 4 times in one lap with me riding his tail (not off track). I still couldnt get buy until later. His power NOT HIS DRIVING ) was amazing (even though he is bullet at Willow springs and good at Laguna seca. Ive been in good battle with all, but keven. I assume kevin's driving i right up there. However, alarcons, kevins, and webbers, cars were kind of out of the spirit of R5. they are (like I keep saying) 2300lbs approx, and have some good hp. I know Vandecar was 245hp and said that he traded the HP for slicks last season. 215hp for a well built 3.0?? I would hope that RACING headers (not just any headers, but equal length and good quality) with an intake , along with big valve heads would yield something more than 215hp.

like I said, even a stock 3.2 is about 210rear wheel and thats with cat, stock exhaust, etc.(ive dynoed two of them on a dynojet 248e)

also, again, the 2611 lbs is with gas, so its really 2491 empy. thats really light, expecially for 247hp as you say, to the wheels on V'dcar's.

Next, yes, i calculated points using 28 base points for the 3.0euro and 13 production points that is used for headers, and wheel mods, so that they can run a large tire. the 10points more on the 3.0 and the 18 points more for the US 3.2 give a lot of options for performance@!! (ie K and J class)

Cort wagner ran 1:26 in a R5 car??? no slicks?? I dont think he will run much faster than most of the top POC drivers in the same car. what is up with that R5 car anyway. 1:26 is pretty darn quick. I dont thin 215hp would cut this, do you . considering he was only 2-3seconds faster than that with a couple of hundred thousand dollars more car at tribute!!
When Mark Anderson drove the white 993 monster turbo for the camera car at tribute, he usually spins 1:24ish, and ran in the lower 1:20s for a few laps.

When mark a. ran against Boris said, Derrek Bell, cunningham, and other great drivers, he is only a second or two back with a heck of a lot less machinery, as was I! (100hp less and 100lbs heavier than mark A)

dont underestimate lightweight and good power.
Im glad that the POC folks are taming down the suspect cars. either do that , or re write the rules for the other cars like mine carrying 1000lbs more weight!!!!!! (am i bitter over the rules for R5 for a 928?? you BET!)

MK
POC 3505lbs, 300 rear wheel hp 928

mk