PogueMoHone

No it says "preparation for speeding activity" (or contest) DE is DE, nothing more and nothing less.

Ahsai

Colm,

I love your interpretation but I'm still struggling with the phrase "prearranged or organized racing, speed, stunting or demolition contest or activity", which includes "participating in speeding activity" (not necessarily preparation for speeding activity).

Am I missing something? I'm interested because I think my insurance have similar wording too.

- Ahsai

krC2S

Rick this is the wording that commerce uses in MA and i checked with three different people there including two people from claims within the last couple of weeks and the response they all gave me that DE is not excluded in fact one of them said driver Ed (their wording) we know and you will not find an exclusion for it in your policy as long as not timed and you are not recieving money for it

i was also concerned about the word "activity" and when i asked them about it
the claims person said this is intended for street racing and does not include DE

chancecasey

I'm no expert, but I thought there was a federal law that mandated that if an insurance policy of any kind was worded ambiguously (could be reasonably read in favor of insuree) in regards to coverage for a specific claim / situation, that the insurer must pay the claim. Of course, you might have to take them to court, but it would be worth it if we're talking tens of thousands of dollars at stake. I think you can represent yourself in small claims and do OK. You'll never get a "it's ok to do xxx" in any policy. Too many things to list, which is why they list exclusions.

My policy (like others) says...

"bodily injury or property damage resulting from any pre-arranged or organized racing, speed or demolition contest, stunting activity, or practice or preparation for any such contest or activity."

If you break the sentence down, the only thing that could possibly be read to exclude DE is if you put "speed" with "activity" - though I'd say it's tenous at best, because I can make the argument that I was never "speeding". Hell, driving 55mph is a "speed activity" when you think about it. It's a question of "how much" speed, and that is not specified. And how exactly can you "legally speed" where there isn't a speed limit? Many, many, holes can be punched through the argument that this paragraph excludes DEs.

Further, since there is no comma after "speed" then grammatically I think you have to lean towards connecting "speed" with "contest", which clearly a DE is not.

I just smacked into the wall at Laguna Seca Tuesday Feb 13. Car is probably totalled. The insurance company is taking their sweet time on deciding whether or not it is covered, but I will fight them to the death if they try to balk. It isn't my fault they didn't word their policy right. And I read this policy VERY carefully before I ever put my car on the track for DE. I know I'm going to pay out the nose when it's time to renew, so I'm going to try to get everything I can out of them now.

I'll update when I hear back from them...

Phokaioglaukos

Chance, sorry to hear of your incident. What happened?

Ahsai

Chance,

Sorry to hear about your accident. Your insurance wording seems to be clearer. It lists a bunch of items seperated by commas, whereas in Rick's, one could esily link "speed" and "activity" together in the same sentence. I agree with your interpretation of your coverage and the ambigous definition of speed.

- Ahsai

speedread

Those who self insure: what do you do if someone's family sues for pain and suffering, etc.? Paying for your car is one thing, but being sued for liability, (is that the right term?), is another. How do YOU protect yourself?

RickBetterley

Well, I like your findings better than mine, that's for sure.
I need to look into this.
BTW, in response to other related psots, I snipped the policy language exactly, including the punctuation, which in insurance contracts is important.

Phokaioglaukos

The waivers that PCA and other clubs require are generally effective. We'll have to see what happens in the CA CGT incident, but then, that's CA and the law there is different than most jurisdictions.....

chancecasey

The good news (and probably counterintuitive) is that my driving improved dramatically that day. It was the second day, and I got some good tips that morning, and I was driving VERY well - though admittedly 'overdriving' a bit. Unfortunately, a few bad things happened at once. My tire pressures were probably too low, I was severely overworking my street tires, and during the second to last session I had my first 2-wheel off in T3 (right hander), exiting a little wide. I did not know if the tires just started getting really greasy (again, I was really overdriving them) or I was just being too aggressive. Anyway, after the 2-off, I turned into T4 (another right hander), engaged the throttle, and the left rear just kicked out left - very very quickly. There were pieces of gravel trapped in the left rear tire bead. Maybe they deflated the tire, or maybe it was mud, maybe greasy tires, I don't know for sure. Before I knew it I was 4 off way before the exit of T4. Fortunately I kept my cool, corrected the steering, and stayed in the throttle somewhat, and redirected the car toward the track. Then, and this is my inexperience showing, I actually got the right 2 wheels back on track, but the instant the right rear hit the pavement the car rotated violently LEFT - I mean LIGHT SPEED - I tried to put both feet in immediately but the car was travelling directly backwards before they engaged. So, here I am, going straight backwards about 30 degrees off the track, sliding over gravel, praying to God that wall is farther away than it really is, and then, smack. Maybe a better driver could have avoided it altogether, but I at least give myself credit for not immediately giving up on the first spin, or I would have hit the wall at a much harsher angle, sooner, and going much faster, and on who knows what side of the car. Before I put both feet in, everything happened SO quickly. Once I gave up, it seemed like an eternity before the damn thing stopped.

Biggest lesson learned? Always back off when you go 2 (or 4) off, or think your car is not performing at 100%. I also learned that maybe DEs are not for me, and it's time to step up to W2W.

Oh and I also learned that going from off to on track while just barely in control is an excellent way to completely lose control instantly.

RickBetterley

Sorry to hear about your incident as well; hope your are undamaged; cars can be fixed or replaced.
You are referring to the concept in law that the party that writes the contract (policy) is responsible for making it complete and accurate; if there is ambiguity, it is generally resolved in favor of the insured.
Our MA policy wording is unfortuately not as favorable as yours, noting the different punctuation around activity (which works agains us, or so the insurers hope).

LVDell

You know, you can only worry about so much. Be careful, use your head, and don't let pride get in the way and you will be a-ok on the track and never have to worry about the lawsuit happy people.

Ray S

Mitch, what specifically have you heard about American Collectors Insurance?

I use them for DE Insurance and I am not aware of any problems. I just called them and they told me I would have no problem renewing.

Just wondering what you have heard.

jaholmes

I should have bought the 30 DE days last year when it was a $1k cheaper. The only issue I had was the high deductable at $7,500.00 on $50k declared value. If you hit a tirewall they may only kick in $3k to $5k. On the other hand if you total the car they pick up most of the declared value.

I think the way to go is self insurace and track a cheaper car where there are plenty of donor cars. That's why I am thinking seriously of a boxster, granted it's still close to $20k but far from $50k. I could strip most of the safety gear and suspension upgrades and put into another donor car.

jlucas

I got a written notice from American Collectors Ins earlier this month expressly telling me that the policy would not be renewed.

What number did you call and who did you talk to?