Phokaioglaukos

Where do people who participate in PCA club races get their training?

Veloce Raptor

Down here, we also mandate long pants made of natural fibers. We do allow short sleeves, due to the extreme heat, however.

Bull

I know quite a few Club Racers, and the answer to that varies amongst them. Most learned car control through autocross and DEs of various types. When it comes to race craft, it varies from pro driving schools followed by hiring pro coaches and race experience, to jumping into Club Racing by completing the Rookie School and "on-job training" in races.

When I started in SCCA racing, there were no DEs in my area, so most completed the SCCA School and jumped in to racing. A few of us rented track time and worked with the best racers we could find to help us. There weren't many pro driving schools available, as many of the people who own/run them now were still racing!

Bull

Some of our CIs will allow short sleeves on a really hot and humid day when enough of us have been whining for half a day. I always feel half naked when I do so.

Veloce Raptor

We have such chronic heat down here, for so many months, that the CI's here realized that allowing short sleeves actually improves safety by slowing the onset of any heat exhaustion.

SundayDriver

I agree with that. The reality is that a long sleeve shirt is only going to provide something like 1/4 second of fire resistance. Even the single layer Nomex stuff is pretty worthless. Now, the requirement for natural fibers is a good one as synthentics can shrink in a fire and make injuries much worse as the melted material sticks to the skin.

I have made similar decisions in racing. Normally I wear three layer Nomex plus long undies. I skip the Nomex undies when it is over 100 degrees or similar with the idea that remaining a bit cooler is safer overall.

Veloce Raptor

Exactly, In sedan (street car based) racing, I prefer a 3 layer nomex suit + one layer of CarbonX cool shirt and nomex undies. The best of both worlds.

SundayDriver

I will also add that there are many people who feel you need a lot of seat time with DEs before racing - and a need to be at mid pack (or better) speed before starting to race. Well, this is my personal experience from teaching at SCCA competition licensing schools.

The second biggest problem group are those people who have so little experience that they are slow to the point of being unsafe. As an instructor, I have to get the speed up to a level where they are safe and aware of faster traffic.

The biggest problem group are those with lots of DE experience. They are fast drivers who go out into a racing environment (SCCA school is like a race with little, if any, driving instruction), drive fast but are in sensory overload with the addition of racing. They have zero racecraft and thing that their skill level is far above what it really is. These are the folks who most often cause crashes and fail the school. The challenge is the get them to slow down the driving to a level that is more consistent with their n00b racecraft skills.

Larry Herman

A very simple rule of thumb that I teel those who ask me about racing: If you have to think about where to brake, turn in, apex and track out, you are not ready to race.

bobt993

Chris, rookie status includes "training". You practice starts and receive mentoring for the program. Class room is mandantory. My experience has been positive through the whole program. PCA assumes you are "green" to some extent and allows you to progress at your own pace. Experienced drivers on the track actually look for your "X" and give some level of space. In my first race, I had a GTC car come flying up on me (which I am use to with the HP difference). I gave him adequate room to pass as it was nothing new to me, but he waited until there was more room two turns later. Alot of good drivers making smart decisions even when not necessary. I would argue that Club racers are safer at DE's than the strictly DE drivers. I base this on the accident percentages I have seen at DE events. I do not remember the last time I saw a club racer's car dented at a DE ( I could have missed one, so help me out). Maybe a new thread should start on this subject as I would very interested in other opinions.


LAST. I support Larry 100% on his response. The remarks on the incident at the Glen are soooooo off base and false that Larry is being polite in his comments.

SundayDriver

I agree and want to add something. We can have two race students who drive exactly the same. One is thinking about all those reference points. That one is not ready for racing as their focus is on the references - they are going to have their head up their *** in a racing situation and will be unsafe.

The other is just as slow but is driving instinctively. Their attention will be on the situation and they are ready to race. The racing environment will elevate their driving skills over time (and probably a pretty short time). I fell into that group. I started racing and was not at all fast. I had a few races where I qualified DFL and my objectives were to finish better than DFL and to stay out of the way of the front guys. Now I did that in SRF where I knew that I had the same car as everyone else and 90%+ of the difference was driver.

Brian Till, at a Mid Ohio School session, told me that speed comes in 3 stages; 1) The Line, 2) Exit Speed and 3) Entry Speed. When you have #1, you can go racing.

Veloce Raptor

+ Juan

gman1868

My 2 cents:

Having been involved in both the Audi Club driving schools (I've been an instructor for 6 years) and PCA DEs then Club racing my experience is this.

PCA Instructors are, across the board, very good driving instructors. The training and level of expectations is consistent and has very high standards. The ACNA has recently adopted both Instructor and Student rating systems that should bring them up to a similar high standard in the near future.

OTOH

IMHO, the PCA DE only loosely resembles a driving school. There is limited classroom time, no in car exercises, and people tend to be allowed to "solo" after only a limited amount of track time with an instructor present in the car. In contrast, the ACNA's rules mandate that the first-time students never get signed off to solo in their first track weekend. (Not that I haven't observed otherwise in the past six years).

With today's environment where we are holding events that incur high risk, it would be in the best interest of both clubs to do whatever it takes to minimize risk. I feel that, if anything, the PCA should apply more structured program for DEs which would be of benefit to everyone involved and lower the risk to the club.

My opinion is that DEs are not the place to train people for racing. They exist to give people the opportunity to learn better car control and become safer drivers on the road. I guess I don't understand why some feel that the PCA shouldn't be willing to offer a racing school, even a one or two-day school with instructors in the car. Why give our money to Skippy when we can support the PCA?

smankow

Heron, I fully agree with Larry about the RTR DE program. Further, more than a few of your facts about the Glen event are wrong. It is something that all of us at the track will remember for quite some time, not just the instructor, corner worker or CI.

So, to echo Larry's comments, who are you and where are you from. Also, where are you now? You have your thread back and have now been absent.


Steve

DarkSideDE

Steve,

I'm in South Carolina -- and I am far from absent. Being an active Porsche member - today was a Saturday TDS to a winery.

Also Steve, I did not mean it as if the only person to have the nightmares would be that cornerworker. It was a sad day for all, and one that will never be forgotten.

I am happy to see this thread returned to where it belongs -- and I had the feeling, if I continued to express myself as to the way my thoughts were about the racing school - some would jump right back in. Thank you all.

Too many PCA people don't understand the roots of a Driver Ed. It has even popped up here that folks think that DEs are somewhere to prepare your racecar or practice for a race.

or
What both of these guys, and many others fail to see is that a DE is to teach you how to control one's car. When you've put the seat time in - there are Test & Tunes one can attend... also, if one must learn to race, there are racing schools - and some that won't hurt the pocketbook - like, SCCA or BMW. If you have money and want more intense instruction -- hey, anything is available for the price. But if you are into racing -- it will cost.

And now, a little about myself, I am in the Coastal Empire Region of PCA. I organize our two DEs a year at Roebling Road Raceway. We have a great time -- it is not just a driving weekend, but our region makes it a social weekend as well. Y'all welcome to "come on down" and join us.