38D

I agree. With my "6 1/2" suggestion, a single car incident would not be grounds for getting sent home (assuming the car could be fixed).

I do think it easy to blame the stewards for their decisions, but I imagine it is a far more difficult job than people imagine. I do think it would be good to give the stewards a bit more flexibility than they have now. Maybe all non mechanicals automatically get 6 1/2s, with a steward having the discretion to upgrade to a full 13.


Ask me after this season. I got a 13 at Daytona for spinning into the tire wall as I trailed braked off the main straight. I almost saved it but ended up tapping the wall at like 5 mph. I drove back into the pits just to check the car (the corner workers were not sure if I hit or not). There was some very minor damage, but the car could have continued racing. I didn't even think to defend my actions, as it was clearly my own damn fault.

I was honestly more pissed at myself as I was waaaay in the lead of my class. Now, I do think I deserve some "punishment", but I'd hate to get punted by some jonser and be out for a year.

944Cup

Have seen the 13/13 work very effectively in the 944 Cup in adjusting the mindset of the racers. Must be that they dont give a rat's *** about themselves or their families, and certainly not other drivers , but care a whole alot about points.

David K.

Can't a single car incident become a multi-car problem?

Mike in Chi

Absolutely.

That is what got our enduro red flagged a few days ago. I've heard some, but not all the details, nor all the deliberations.

Barest essentials -- guy spun blocking most of track just past apex of 15. Soon thereafter, two cars in a heated battle, entered the turn.

Result, t-boned spinner.

By the way, having seen the spinners car, the Nascar bar is a wonderful thing, especially on the driver's side

Bull

And then it is not a "single car incident", and I don't think it should fall under the same handling as a true single car incident.

mji911

During the sprint race at Sebring I was hit in the drivers door and rear quarter panel. Driver was running to hard for the angle needed to make the corner. Damage was a rub out on his car and close to a rub out on mine, they were considering no 13/13 until some one had it on video and it was clearly a over aggressive move on his part. No loss of control, just a few positions, Does some rubbing happen during racing, absolutly, Should it be considered a 13/13 I don't think so. You have to expect some minor contact Its RACING.

38D

While I do agree that you need to be prepared for your car to be damaged, I think any "rubbing" should be a 13. I personally value my car more than a $5 trophy. To me, the whole point of the 13/13 rule is to discourage rubbing or touching. If people want that they can go race spec miatas.

Mike in Chi

the yellow was waving. Frantically.

John H

I don't see much of a difference in aggressiveness between NASA GTS Challenge and PCA. No one wants to ding their car up. If a person has too many "racing incidents" they are treated like the the guy with the albatross hanging around his neck. Most of the guys I've raced with in the Ohio Indiana NASA GTS region are guys who 1. take great pride in and care of their cars, 2. give plenty of racing room especially when you catch them fast or hound them for awhile; and 3. seem to be less egotistic (if that's a word), more blue collar.

The dollar wars haven't hit NASA GTS yet from what I can see. I attribute that to the simple HP/weight classes. Spending thousands of dollars for that extra 10 HP really makes no sense in NASA. If its a 3.0, 3.4 or 3.6 that has the same hp rating, you're in the same class. PCA puts 3.4's in GT3S for example whether you got the best, biggest dollar 3.4 in the country or a tired old 3.4. The incentive is there to maximize the HP and spend lots of money to get there. That's why I like NASA. Well, that and the modified 13/13 rule.

So, in a way, it is different and what works for NASA may not work in PCA (or satisfy some members) where you have people flying in to drive $200,000 cars and sip tea between races. Sure they feel safer with a strict 13/13 rule but I am not convinced it really matters.

M758

I have completed some 50 or 60 NASA races.

Over that time
- Contact with somthing solid = 1 Driver Error (me) in Saturday qualfying and I tore up the front spoiler & left front suspension arm in contact with a berm way off track.
I replaced the arm and won the Saturday race and Sunday race. No Penalty awared and I infact started on Pole in Saturday's race from my one good lap.
A PCA event and I would have gone home.

- Car to car contact 2 times
- Racing with another 944 (good friend in fact) fighting for a corner. I went deep for the pass and had space, but over shot the turn in a point a bit and the car I was passing thought I would turn and he hit my pass door with his front wheels. I continued on, but he pulled off. Result considered a racing incident my friend and I discuss it at length. Neither were happy with the contact, but at the same time we understood each other and what happened. We have raced that same corner hard many times with no contact for over a year since then.

- In race practice a few months after the incident with the 944. I was passing a slower cornering high car. In a very common passing area he left room to get by on the inside. I went inside as I have done hundereds of times before in a place were there is plenty of room. The other driver for no reason turned down torward me and pinched my between the wall and his car. I got hard on the brakes to avoid contact and his rear tire touched my front fender and spun me around. I talked to him after the session and he was very billigerant and basicly laughed at me. At first I did not even know we had contact, but whenever I have close calls I like to talk to the other driver just clear the air and such. This guy was an A-hole about it and said he never saw me and his spotter never saw me either. Point is that he got a good strong talking to by the race director not so much for the on track actions, but for the way he handled it off track. He has not be to NASA event since then.

Beyond just me it is very rare during any NASA Az weekend that a car comes back damaged. Most often car to car is of the fender bender type and the single car stuff are the nasty ones. However I had two friends wad up their cars a few weeks ago. 3 really good exeperieced drivers, but a **** happens situation. Car 1 is leading in a practice and in long 180 turn loops it about 2/3 of the way around. Car 2 is following and watchs the spin and just clears the stopped car. Car 3 is following right behind car 2 and never saw Car 1 spin so when car 2 clears car 1, car 3 has no place to go and no time to react. Result is car 3 plowed into car 1 at 60 mph no brakes. Nobody's fault really just all about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As far as I know not penalties were issued to any of the drivers.

What is interesting is that in the PCA races in Phoenix there seems to be more caranage than in 2 or 3 NASA weekends at PIR. Could be alot of reasons, but I don't feel I am safer under the PCA 13/13 rule. In fact getting a 13/13 and having to pack up an leave for since car issue is stupid. There are better ways to determine who is driving over thier heads. In car to car contact situations automatic 13/13 to one of the driver is simple, but leaves no room for judgement and attitude of the driver's after. In my mind what a driver does AFTER contact is often more important that what he/she did that caused it. Rarely is car to car contact 100% the fault of just one driver. Mostly it is a result of two guys both thinking the "other guy" will back down/ yeild or "will see me". What I learned from my car to car with my 944 friend is that I will never let myself get in a situation that I NEED the other driver to react and evade to prevent contact. I always want to leave myself a way out just in case he does not see me.

Oh, I forgot to mention NASA for 944 spec does not use a 13/13 rule. We just run to the same contact standards in the CCR's which don't specify a 13/13 policy. Clearly car to car contact is frowned up and very much so by all 944spec drivers.

M758

I have never driven any differently in PCA 13/13 or NASA non 13/13 event.

Goal # 1 is to be safe and come home in 1 piece. You can't do that if you are flying off the track all over the place hitting things or other cars.

Larry Herman

This is a really good thread. Please get all of the drivers that you know who are on this forum to contribute. The more we have responding, the more clout it has. The main point at this time is that 82% of the respondents want the 13/13 rule changed.

DrJupeman

Larry, I wish you had included "council of peers", that would have gotten my vote.

Larry Herman

Charlie, once we get some more respondents (at least 100, I'm hoping for 200) I will refine the choices based upon the input here. I will certainly add that as an option and set up the next poll with "pick as many as you like" choices. This could provide us with the foundation to change what universally seems to be an outdated concept.

38D

One thing I was thinking about is that while the 13/13 rule does not seem to do much for the epxerienced guys, I do think it may make newer racers ore comfortable. For me it was definitely comforting to know that contact was a big no-no. And I do think I drove differently because I knew I'd get booted for hitting anything (that conservative nature lasted all of about 2 races...).


This has been pointed out a couple of times, but I think important to highlight again, and one of the main reasons to change the current rule. I also agree with Joe that how the person handles the incident after the fact is very important as well.


The more I think about this, the more I'd like to see 3 changes:

1) The "6 1/2" for more minor contact/incident
2) Allow the steward to decide between nothing, a 6 1/2 and a 13, though still have the guideline of a least a 6 1/2 for an "at fault" incident (i.e. dont give the stewards total discretion)
3) Some form of appeal board