George A

Manny,

I hate to say this but at every PCA race I've participated in (only 3 so far, I think), I've seen favoritism toward a more "popular" individual. In those three races, I've seen two individuals cause accidents and not be given a 13. Both blamed something else, flat tire, not my fault, etc. In the third, the same individual had a single car accident and blamed it on a flat tire. Still no thirteen. Yet, a good friend who hit some armco at the same event in a single car accident was given a 13.

I hope this is just a coincidence because I really enjoy racing with the PCA crowd. In my BMWCCA races (three also, I think), I have yet to see a single incident.

G.

Veloce Raptor

Wow. Nice.

Sean F

This is the part I have trouble with. I can "have the corner" but if someone is on my hip I need to alter my line to give him room. Just seems like a contradiction. I've prepared to take the corner all the way to the turn in point based on a line I want to take through the corner but now I need to alter it to give racing room.

M758

944... Reason... he did not establish position to make the pass. If it had been pure side to side then 911 for not allowing racing room.

Mike in Chi

The crux of the matter.

And this is where the judgement call lies for the stew as to which rule was violated.

I have heard of one, the other, or both cars getting 13s in what at first seems to be the identical situation

Sean F

So, just always give room to be safe?

Mike in Chi

That certainly would keep you clean, but tough when you're racing for position.

38D

When I was at Road America this year, I diced with a white 944 turbo cup. He got inside me a couple of times and I would just take the wider line and give him about a car width inside. When he finally got up to my door, I did a later apex and repass move. In my opinion, its just not worth the contact to try and "shut the door". I will only shut the door if the guy is clearly behind me, but with a HANS its not always easy to tell. Now I may lose to a more aggressive racers on occassion, and yeah I'd rather win. But I'd rather take my car home perfect anyday than win and have to buy a $1000 fender.

Jess

This is exactly my situation and how I feel about PCA Club Racing. Amen, brother!

Most, and I say most, drove exactly like that in the blue group at Sebring.

Jess

timo944

My 5 cents:

a) The 944 in the video is at fault. Even if the 911 had left enough room for the 944 for get through, the 944 would have hit him anyway. He could not slow down enough to make the corner.

b) The incident at Roebling Dec 2005. I was in the control tower after the race (because of a sepaerate incident) and I overheard the conversation between the 911 driver and the steward. There was defintiely a buddy-buddy attitude and the 911 driver was leveraging it as hard as he could. Not appropriate behaviour for a PCA steward. Interpret this for yourself.

c) in Robeling Dec 2005 I was in a similar crash to the one in the video. I was in the 911 in this case. There was no video. The steward could not decide who was at fault but he told us that one of us needed to admit fault or we woudl both get a 13. Then he left us (we're good friends) to discuss it between us to decide who wanted to take the hit. The loser gets a 13/13 and the winner also wins the race. We decided that since I was planning to do only 2 races in 2006 and he was planning to do more, I would take the hit. We told this to the steward and he was OK with it. Fair? In a video that surfaced later it was clear to me that I was in the right but I did not pursue it.

d) In an incident Atlanta 2006, lap two of the sprint. A G 911 in front of me going up the hill into turn 11, I am right in his backside as we start to pull up the hill and gaining fast. He suddenly slows, and I make a move to the right to go around him (as I had done successfully the previous lap). He jerks to the right so at the last split second I go the the left around him ( I had nowhere else to go). As I pass him he jerks to the left and hits my door. I get a 13 because the pass was considered "too dangerous." I argued with the steward for 30 minutes that the driver was acting incoherently, car moving from side to side and going slow, as if he had missed a shift. Made no difference. Pissed, I decide to leave the track and PCA at that moment. As I am leaving I hear from a friend that the other driver got a 13 for missing a shift. I went back and argued my case again. It took an hour, but after re-reading (or reading??) my statement and discussing with the second steward he agreed and let me go. I was glad to be let go, but I am very mad that the steward had not fully considered the case.

Cases a,c,d illustrate to me that there is a problem with the application of the 13/13 rule. Personally I am headed to SCCA. If NASA can get their act straight I may race with them too. I will race PCA again but not with as much heart as in the past.

Tim Betteridge
Atlanta, GA

Veloce Raptor

Wherever there is human judgement involved, and lots of extenuating circumstances, all the frailties of human judgement come into play.

Sean F

Is it an over simplification to suggest that the concept of racing room is the problem? If someone owns the corner they should own the corner. If there is contact, it is the other person's fault. If I have the corner at turn in and I hit someone at the apex it is the fault of the person at the apex no matter what. Wouldn't knowing that force the person who doesn't own the corner to act appropriately or face a certain 13/13?

Larry Herman

Part of the problem is differential application of the rules. PCA has the definitions and examples of racing room clearly spelled out and diagrammed, and then the stewards rule the opposite. Just compare the 911/944 incedent to what they show on the website. It is clearly and utterly the 944s fault. I think that a panel of 3 racers would do a better job. 2 panels (6 racers) could be appointed to cover the incedents at each event. Or at least make the Steward review it with 2 designated racers so that there at least would be a concensus. It would not be that hard.

esscape26

944.

I'm very interested in "adjucation" of the Sebring Cup incident. I think #0 was at fault due to local yellow, which IMO gave #461 impression that no one would be passing in turn. However, about 5 people near me disagreed.

In 461-0 incident, yellow and prior incident were parallel; the attempted pass just after. Can you pass after you clear a yellow incident or must you wait 'til sight of next green station? I've seen passes right away, many, many times with no penalty assessed.

At Sebring, the corner stations are not always clear (guy behind fence) so how do you determine when you're in sight of the next green station?

But what a strong car the Cup is; windshield intact, etc.!

Miss you Mac.

PM

Manny Alban

Years back, I was at a PCA race in Watkins Glen in which a 911 turned into another 911 (which actually belong to a steward). The video from the steward appeared straightforward and easy to judge. The first 911 didn't see the steward's 911 and turned into it at the start. HOWEVER, another racer came forward with his tape. He was behind all this mess. His video showed a different perspective. The steward's 911 appeared to get loose under braking and his left rear quarter panel tapped the first 911's right rear quarter panel causing the first 911 to turn into the steward's 911. The steward was given a 13/13. As mentioned earlier in this thread, sometimes the truth doesn't always lie in a 2 inch screen and sometimes, it does.