Russ Murphy

Drover named Ghetto
"Control always possible"
That drover is gone

Veloce Raptor

analogmike

Sorry I was MIA for a while...

In the 944/911 video (Mt Tremblant 1999) the 911 got the 13 as he did not give racing room to the 944. I agree that the 944 was in over his head but that was the PCA ruling.

My incident in T1 at Sebring was on my mind last night and I could not sleep. On Saturday I accepted the penalty well and did not think much about it till last night as I generally like the 13/13 rule and $%^& happens. But now I am feeling frustrated.

I am trying to think of how I could have avoided contact, can't see anything I could have done once I determined I was going to pass him. If the car you are passing turns into you, it seems it's now YOUR FAULT as you are supposed to be in control of the pass (unlike the ruling above). Unfortunately my video camera was not installed in the old car as I just pulled it out of the cup car. His video seemed to show me driving into his left rear in his rearview mirror (as seem on a 2" screen). Mine would have showed me on the perfect racing line throughout the entire corner, with him taking a SUPER late apex having turned in from mid track, going wide entering the turn then squeezing into me a bit past the apex. I had to lift when he sqeezed me off and that caused my car to oversteer and my passenger's door handle area brushed his LR corner.

When I have someone right behind me on my left in T1, I leave room on the inside so this does not happen, as I know if there contact we will both spin and the walls are quite hard. If he had given me some racing room, there would have been no problem and he could still have stayed ahead of me or at least continued the fantastic racing we were having up until then.

Just feel frustrated, with a junk set of brand new tires (tiny burn areas while locked up going backwards at 80MPH) and 1st thing I will do it put that camera in for the next race...

Not sure how I will vote in Larry's 13/13 poll but not too happy with the stewards ruling this time. Of course it's hard to be objective when you are involved, maybe I just suck as a drover

Adam@Autometrics

Of all the incidents I've seen, I'd say that in 9/10, contact could have been avoided by either car. Consequently, fault is shared by both cars, in my opinion. It may be split 90/10 or 50/50, but in most cases its around 60/40, and it is debateable which car is which. PCA gives the penalty to the 60 and not the 40 despite being similarly at fault.
In the 944/911 video the 944 could have avoided contact by slowing down when it saw the 911 coming over on him (granted this might have caused another problem resulting in contact), but all the 911 had to do was turn in and leave a car's width on the inside. My opinion: 911 60% fault, 944 40% fault. PCA almost always gives the penalty to the faster car citing it is his responsibility.

I think the concept that you "own" the track until some set amount of the other car is next to you is the real problem. If a car can get enough of his car next to you to spin you (more than a bumper), then you shold be required to give him most of a lane. The inside car, similarly should know he's making a tough move and be prepared to put a wheel in the grass, but he should have a lane.
It works on the exit as well. The car on the inside, even if he has a small lead needs to allow room on the outside on track-out.

Sean F

The thing that this thread has confirmed for me is that I still don't understand the concept of racing room in a practical sense.

38D

I agree. The 911 had nothing to gain by turning in all the way to the apex. Just leave some room for the guy. Its not pro racing and there is nothing to gain. I hate it when amateurs "chop down" on people like they think they're at Le Mans (just like I hate golfers that plumb every putt like it's the masters...). Just totally unecessary. Now the 944 has fault too as it was a low percentage move to begin with.

Mike in Chi

Sean

I think it is determined in part by the overriding PCA principle that we are to co-exist on the track. Just because the corner is "yours" because your nose got to the turn-in point first, you have to leave room for your competitor. Even though it is yours, you can't shut the door on the other driver by diving for the apex. In most cases there would be resulting contact.

I take racing room to mean staying off the apex to give the guy who doesn't have the corner room to get through.

Ultimately there will be judgement calls by the Steward. (And I don't see how we can ever get around that)

As a mentor, I went to the rookie orientation last Thursday evening (so nice to see so many long-time racers in attedence too )

I listened very carefully while Bryan Hendersen explained the 13/13 rule.

*The first one to the Turn In point has the corner.

*We have to leave racing room for our competitors.

*We have to maintain control of our cars at all times.

*If you strike a vertical object (walls are vertical objects) you get a 13.

Decisions as to 13s will be based on those principles.

Obviously many racing incidents are not black and white. These principles can be in seeming contradiction frequently. And I'm sure many incidents fall into a gray area between these principles

Bryan talked about the importance of video in helping make a just decision, and all our responsibilites in coming forward if we have video or information that can help the stewards make a just decision.

No doubt the 13/13 rule is as difficult for the stewards as it is for us.

(I know many of the stewards follow this board, and it would be wonderful if one or more of them could bring perspective to this, though I suspect that is against the club policy for them)

Here's a tough one from this past weekend.

What if you drive with your car under control at all times, but you rely on ABS in some turns? Then your ABS fails in one of those turns, and you have contact with a vertical object... do you get a 13? Or is it a mechanical? (The ABS failure was verified by scruts. The scrut even found the cause) Or should you still be able to control your car without the assist of ABS?

Whether other drivers are merely trying to avoid a pentalty, or truly looking out for me on track, I do think there is a big benefit to a form of 13/13 racing.

For what it's worth, I voted for the modified NASA 13/13. If it's going to be a judgemental decision anyway, let's give the stewards a little more room to judge.

db944

Ok, I have to jump in here and hopefully some of the Peachstate guys will also come in. I know of another incident at Roebling in Dec 2005 where a similar incident to the tape shown in this thread got the opposite verdict. What is really interesting is that the 944 in this case was CLEARLY ahead of the 911 (same circumstance, 911 outside, 944 inside). The 911 turns into the 944 and contact marks (read sheet metal damage) started just behind the hinges of the drivers door and went back. In this case the 944 got the 13.

who was driving the 911? A former national steward for PCA that was clearly a slower car and not in contention. Also interesting, the 911 driver admitted fault!!!!

Now, the 944 driver in question had to sit out the entire 2006 PCA season. Why? Because his first 13 was a one car incident where he got into an armco enough to scrape the left rear fender on his car. Car was driveable, but he was done and ended up losing the entire 2006 season as a result.

Fair? Hardly.

The current 13/13 rule in PCA is far too punitive, especially for one car incidents. If you damage your car and don't cause any harm to another competitor's car or the race track (armco, etc.) then you should be allowed to conitnue through the race weekend. Twice in one race weekend, then I'm all for a 13.

And there needs to be a "jury of your peers" e.g. a group of racers, making a call on car to car incidents. The politics in PCA has become almost unbearable. "It's not what you know, it's who you know"

Manny Alban

I gotta disagree with this. I've been to alot of club races and have seen scruts and stewards who were racing, not volunteering, get 13/13's including the guy who started club racing and the past national chairman of pca club racing. I've seen the President of PCA get a 13/13 as well. Has 'knowing someone' ever helped? Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't, but I wouldn't make a blanket judgement on it.

As a racer, I wouldn't mind having a 'jury of your peers' staff 13/13 appeal committee.

Adam@Autometrics

I hadn't thought of it before, but a jury-type appeal committee sounds like a great start to 13/13 reform. Basically, you appeal with video, testimony, etc and that gets sent to a number of racers who vote yes or no. Majority wins.

I'd also like to see no 13 for the first single car incident in a weekend (but certainly for a second) as long as the damage is minor enough that the car can reasonably continue the weekend.

Veloce Raptor

How would you administer it? When would there be time to convene such a body?

John H

That's exactly what happened to me (although I did not make a habit of using the ABS in the corner where my one car incident took place). Mine was verified by the ABS light seen by the corner worker and the scruit who came to see me in the pits. The chief steward told me that ABS failures do not count as mechanicals. They have too many claimed ABS failures and even have some cars (944's) where owners have rigged reset switches. She told me they caught one racer actually turning his ignition off on the straight to reset his ABS.

ABS failure was not a mechanical in my case at VIR even though it rained all weekend and there was all kinds of crap on the track from the Grand Am guys.

Jim Child

NASA GTS uses an Incidnet Review Board to reivew incidents and hand out penalties if necessary. This is a "jury of your peers" composed of well respected GTS drivers. They convene right after the race is held, and issue their decisions the same day. This process was implemented around the middle of last year and has worked extremely well so far.

John H

NASA's GTS Challenge 13/13 committee is made up of your fellow GTS racers. You get a quick review and decision while you are there. The funny thing about NASA was in my first race, I saw contact by two cars directly in front of me. I slowed down to let them get it together thinking they would head immediately for the pits. Not so. They kept racing and beat me. D'oh.

Veloce Raptor

Cool.