Driver's Ed Recommendations
02-05-2003, 07:02 PM
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Driver's Ed Recommendations
I just bought a 2003 996 coupe and would like to learn more about high speed driving techniques and the car's limits for fun and safety purposes. I am not looking to learn to race. This seems to be basically the Porsche Driving Experience course; however, it is extremely expensive and very inconvenient as it's mainly given during weekdays in Atlanta (I'm located in Los Angeles). Can anyone recommend the best approach to get some of these skills in my car within a 3-5 hour drive of LA? I would think that going to a regional school like Skip Barber's may not the first choice since it won't teach me about the limits/characteristics of a 996 (although I'm sure I'll still learn a lot) and may be more racing-oriented. I have read a number of books and understand a fair amount about theoretical technique - but this doesn't mean a whole lot with ZERO seat time with an instructor, etc (practicing heel/toe shifting on the street just can't take you there!). Any advice on how to get decent local instruction over one (or two days) for around $1000 or less would be very much appreciated. Note - I'm a PCA member, but I can't figure out how their DE programs work and when for this year, etc. Thanks in advance for your advice.
02-05-2003, 07:18 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
This is an easy one...
Start off by finding your local Porsche Club of America chapter - you can do so by going to their website and searching for your region.
<a href="http://www.pca.org" target="_blank">www.pca.org</a>
Link you your region, and there will be tons of information about scheduled DE events.
FYI, DE events may be "high speed", but are NOT race driving education (although you can certainly apply what you learn in them to racing).
You'll have a GREAT time, too!!!
Good luck.
Erick
Start off by finding your local Porsche Club of America chapter - you can do so by going to their website and searching for your region.
<a href="http://www.pca.org" target="_blank">www.pca.org</a>
Link you your region, and there will be tons of information about scheduled DE events.
FYI, DE events may be "high speed", but are NOT race driving education (although you can certainly apply what you learn in them to racing).
You'll have a GREAT time, too!!!
Good luck.
Erick
02-05-2003, 07:19 PM
#3
Find the websites of PCA regions all over California (since there are a lot of tracks out there) and check and keep checking their events calendar, or look for a contact person and get a hold of them. Alternatively start going to local events and start asking around, an autocross would be a great event to a) start bonding with the car and b) meet someone who can direct you to the right event. I started down that slippery slope by asking someone about DE's at aa autocross and finding out how little I really needed to do to prepare. Also there are other clubs (BMW, Audi Quattro, Corvette, etc.) that do the same thing where you may be welcome. $1000 should get you into 3 or 4 DE weekends and that would be great preparatoin for one of the professional courses if you were to go that route. Good Luck
02-05-2003, 07:52 PM
#4
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See if your local PCA region conducts an autocross school. A lot of the exercises you would do at PDE (which by the way is now in alabama) are covered in our regions school --skidpad, threshhold brakin, slalom. Admitedly it is not as in depth as PDE, but it is the basics.
Barber also has a 2 day driving school (not racing) that really goes into these things, You are in neons, trucks and Vipers. Although it is not a 996, you'll get a tremendous amount out of it.
I'm sure other schools have similar programs.
Good luck. You're gonna have a ball.
Barber also has a 2 day driving school (not racing) that really goes into these things, You are in neons, trucks and Vipers. Although it is not a 996, you'll get a tremendous amount out of it.
I'm sure other schools have similar programs.
Good luck. You're gonna have a ball.
02-05-2003, 09:34 PM
#6
Race Car
In L.A., the PCA only does (I think) one DE event a year. Pretty disappointing. I think we get more action on our tracks from the neighboring regions.
But I'd recommend two things based on what you're saying you want. One would be to do a local autocross or two. Then, I'd suggest participating in one of the POC short track series events at Streets of Willow or Buttonwillow.
And before you do that, I'd spend some time with a performance driving book -- do a search for recommendations from the board.
Here are a couple of schedules of (mostly) local events:
<a href="http://www.nosubstitute.org/calendar.asp" target="_blank">http://www.nosubstitute.org/calendar.asp</a>
<a href="http://members.***.net/trackdays/page1.shtml" target="_blank">http://members.***.net/trackdays/page1.shtml</a>
But I'd recommend two things based on what you're saying you want. One would be to do a local autocross or two. Then, I'd suggest participating in one of the POC short track series events at Streets of Willow or Buttonwillow.
And before you do that, I'd spend some time with a performance driving book -- do a search for recommendations from the board.
Here are a couple of schedules of (mostly) local events:
<a href="http://www.nosubstitute.org/calendar.asp" target="_blank">http://www.nosubstitute.org/calendar.asp</a>
<a href="http://members.***.net/trackdays/page1.shtml" target="_blank">http://members.***.net/trackdays/page1.shtml</a>
02-06-2003, 12:40 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
I agree that AutoX's are the place to learn intitial car control because these events allow you to get the car to the limit in lower speed, safer environments then on many/most tracks. But, after that if the LA PCA chapters are low on DE events then you may want to look into some San Diego PCA events. We have a pretty full calendar of DE and time trial events for the year and usually welcome PCA members from neighboring regions. There are also organiations like Tracquest that you might want to look into. I have not run with them but I have heard great things about them and the quality of their instruction. Of course standard disclaimers here...no affiliation with Tracquest, but I am a member of PCASD.
<a href="http://www.pcasd.org" target="_blank">PCA San Diego Region</a>
<a href="http://www.tracquest.com" target="_blank">Tracquest</a>
<a href="http://www.pcasd.org" target="_blank">PCA San Diego Region</a>
<a href="http://www.tracquest.com" target="_blank">Tracquest</a>
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02-06-2003, 11:20 AM
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Eric,
Don't know if it matters, but the PDE schedule that I recently received had all of the classes on weekdays, instead of weekends, and as mentioned above, are conducted in Birmingham, Alabama.
It's cheaper to do what I did as a teenager and go out to a local municiple airport, (with permission of course) or industrial complex, or abandoned parking lot when it rains and when it's dry and create your own skid/handling situations. I used to use my emergency brake to throw the tail around and then practice recovering. This self-teaching will put you much farther ahead once you do get some instruction.
I can't come up with, and neither has anyone to my knowledge on this board, anything you cannot simulate yourself on the road that you can do on the track. The track is just more easily controlled since it's designed for it. On the road, or other hard surfaces, without on-coming traffic of course, you just have to be more creative.
Good luck, Kent
Don't know if it matters, but the PDE schedule that I recently received had all of the classes on weekdays, instead of weekends, and as mentioned above, are conducted in Birmingham, Alabama.
It's cheaper to do what I did as a teenager and go out to a local municiple airport, (with permission of course) or industrial complex, or abandoned parking lot when it rains and when it's dry and create your own skid/handling situations. I used to use my emergency brake to throw the tail around and then practice recovering. This self-teaching will put you much farther ahead once you do get some instruction.
I can't come up with, and neither has anyone to my knowledge on this board, anything you cannot simulate yourself on the road that you can do on the track. The track is just more easily controlled since it's designed for it. On the road, or other hard surfaces, without on-coming traffic of course, you just have to be more creative.
Good luck, Kent
02-06-2003, 11:56 AM
#9
Race Director
Eric,
I too, recommend doing the autocross / PCA DE route. I would say try to attend a couple of autocrosses before you get out on the track. Also: my PCA region does a car control clinic every year, in which they do skid-pad, slalom, and braking stuff. While autocross experience is not a requirement for DE, it will better prepare you for track driving: basically, you won't panic when the car starts to slide a little.
I DO NOT recommend what Kent said: while sliding around a parking lot may be fun, and may help you get used to the sliding sensation, there is: a.) no instruction, so you could be learning improper techniques, and b.) no way of telling if you are improving your skills or not.
In an autocross, the course is timed, and there are instructors available if you need help. In DE, you are typically assigned an instructor for the duration of the event.
Regarding price:
For me, a day of autocrossing will run $30.00. Two days of DE /track costs around $200.00, plus travel / hotel expenses.
Hope this helps,
-Zoltan.
I too, recommend doing the autocross / PCA DE route. I would say try to attend a couple of autocrosses before you get out on the track. Also: my PCA region does a car control clinic every year, in which they do skid-pad, slalom, and braking stuff. While autocross experience is not a requirement for DE, it will better prepare you for track driving: basically, you won't panic when the car starts to slide a little.
I DO NOT recommend what Kent said: while sliding around a parking lot may be fun, and may help you get used to the sliding sensation, there is: a.) no instruction, so you could be learning improper techniques, and b.) no way of telling if you are improving your skills or not.
In an autocross, the course is timed, and there are instructors available if you need help. In DE, you are typically assigned an instructor for the duration of the event.
Regarding price:
For me, a day of autocrossing will run $30.00. Two days of DE /track costs around $200.00, plus travel / hotel expenses.
Hope this helps,
-Zoltan.
02-06-2003, 03:57 PM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Eric,
I was in a simillar situation a year ago. I had bought my first Porsche, considered myself a fairly good street driver by experience, and realized fairly quickly that the car had abilites way beyond anything that street driving could deliver. I joined PCA, and went on a DE tour. It is an absolute blast, and it is absolutely rewarding, and very, very addicting. I have 3 tracks within 90 minutes of where I live, and I did 9 events last year alone. Did I mention it is very addicting
.
I echo the advice of the others regarding DE and autocross. The expertise of the person beside you is invaluable. Theory is one thing, but the actual seat time with someone watching and noting things that you would otherwise not realize goes a long way in making you a better performance driver.
You do not need to limit yourself to PCA events. DE's are run by Audi clubs, BMW clubs, MB clubs, Viper clubs, Corvettes......you name a performance oriented enthusiast car and there is probably a club for that car with DE schedules. Most if not all will welcome all car makes. A local Corvette club even invited me to their auto cross just so they can see how a Porsche will fare against their Detroit Iron. Go to one of your PCA chapter meetings/socials, and you'll likely find a DE or autocross fanatic like me who can point out the available local events. There may even be an LA person on this board. Onother way to find them is to call a close by if not local racetrack and they can tell you which clubs run on their track.
As the ads say, try it, you'll like it! To whet your appetite further (and also so I can brag, again, heh-heh), here's a pic of my new C4S at turn-in, right rear wheel off the ground, running away from the pack.
<img src="http://members.rennlist.com/palting/173D7748sm.JPG" alt=" - " />
If curious, more pics at : <a href="http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/album18" target="_blank">Palting</a>
I was in a simillar situation a year ago. I had bought my first Porsche, considered myself a fairly good street driver by experience, and realized fairly quickly that the car had abilites way beyond anything that street driving could deliver. I joined PCA, and went on a DE tour. It is an absolute blast, and it is absolutely rewarding, and very, very addicting. I have 3 tracks within 90 minutes of where I live, and I did 9 events last year alone. Did I mention it is very addicting
.I echo the advice of the others regarding DE and autocross. The expertise of the person beside you is invaluable. Theory is one thing, but the actual seat time with someone watching and noting things that you would otherwise not realize goes a long way in making you a better performance driver.
You do not need to limit yourself to PCA events. DE's are run by Audi clubs, BMW clubs, MB clubs, Viper clubs, Corvettes......you name a performance oriented enthusiast car and there is probably a club for that car with DE schedules. Most if not all will welcome all car makes. A local Corvette club even invited me to their auto cross just so they can see how a Porsche will fare against their Detroit Iron. Go to one of your PCA chapter meetings/socials, and you'll likely find a DE or autocross fanatic like me who can point out the available local events. There may even be an LA person on this board. Onother way to find them is to call a close by if not local racetrack and they can tell you which clubs run on their track.
As the ads say, try it, you'll like it! To whet your appetite further (and also so I can brag, again, heh-heh), here's a pic of my new C4S at turn-in, right rear wheel off the ground, running away from the pack.
<img src="http://members.rennlist.com/palting/173D7748sm.JPG" alt=" - " />
If curious, more pics at : <a href="http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/album18" target="_blank">Palting</a>
02-06-2003, 04:15 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Yes, all good suggestions.
Autocross is not a absolute requirement, but it sure cant hurt for some slow speed, high wheel spin control. But, Driving events with POC, PCA, or NASA is a great way to get your feet wet and push the car and yourself near your limits, safely. The instructors are usually pretty good, but use references if you really want to be safe.
Ive helped a lot of new DE and race folks up in Nor Cal and they have all been very safe up to this point.
Later, you can invest in a cheap race car like the 79 928 im selling now (see below), and start running club races. This way, the car is lighter and has more performance than most any street car, and it much cheaper in the long run, than converting your existing porsche 911.
--------------------------------------------------
The black 79 928 race car is for sale. 210 rear wheel hp, 2800lbs, forgeline wheels (9.5" /11" ) with 1/2 used Kumo 275x40x17s
suspension,
swaybar,
3 sets of Pia enduro lights with custom mounts for stock appearance
Updated S4 rear wing
Earlier "S" front air dam, with custom brake duct scoops.
log book, with all required safety equip.
Run only 2 race days and 2 DE days. Seems to be bullet proof.
Runs 2:10 at Thunderhill with the hill. slightly slower than Spec 911 class, faster than NASA CMC mustangs/Cameros
Bigger brakes, set of almost new Kumos and headers will be tossed in for buyer
Pictures at:
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image8.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image8.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image33.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image33.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image279.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image279.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image100.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image100.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image284.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image284.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image280.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image280.htm</a>
Great enduro car, very easy to drive.
ready to race, asking $8,000.
Mark Kibort
408 823 3731
_________________
Mark Kibort
eRACING
<a href="http://www.electricsupercharger.com" target="_blank">www.electricsupercharger.com</a>
<a href="http://www.928trackcars.com/kibort/" target="_blank">http://www.928trackcars.com/kibort/</a>
Autocross is not a absolute requirement, but it sure cant hurt for some slow speed, high wheel spin control. But, Driving events with POC, PCA, or NASA is a great way to get your feet wet and push the car and yourself near your limits, safely. The instructors are usually pretty good, but use references if you really want to be safe.
Ive helped a lot of new DE and race folks up in Nor Cal and they have all been very safe up to this point.
Later, you can invest in a cheap race car like the 79 928 im selling now (see below), and start running club races. This way, the car is lighter and has more performance than most any street car, and it much cheaper in the long run, than converting your existing porsche 911.
--------------------------------------------------
The black 79 928 race car is for sale. 210 rear wheel hp, 2800lbs, forgeline wheels (9.5" /11" ) with 1/2 used Kumo 275x40x17s
suspension,
swaybar,
3 sets of Pia enduro lights with custom mounts for stock appearance
Updated S4 rear wing
Earlier "S" front air dam, with custom brake duct scoops.
log book, with all required safety equip.
Run only 2 race days and 2 DE days. Seems to be bullet proof.
Runs 2:10 at Thunderhill with the hill. slightly slower than Spec 911 class, faster than NASA CMC mustangs/Cameros
Bigger brakes, set of almost new Kumos and headers will be tossed in for buyer
Pictures at:
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image8.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image8.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image33.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image33.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image279.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image279.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image100.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image100.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image284.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image284.htm</a>
<a href="http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image280.htm" target="_blank">http://sis125.berkeley.edu/928/devek-2002/track/image280.htm</a>
Great enduro car, very easy to drive.
ready to race, asking $8,000.
Mark Kibort
408 823 3731
_________________
Mark Kibort
eRACING
<a href="http://www.electricsupercharger.com" target="_blank">www.electricsupercharger.com</a>
<a href="http://www.928trackcars.com/kibort/" target="_blank">http://www.928trackcars.com/kibort/</a>
02-06-2003, 04:52 PM
#12
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Mark Kibort,
I agree with the comments about autocrossing. Down here in So Cal quite a few are on parking lots with the turns marked by cones. Many newbies get frustrated by the cones and lose the feel for the road. Driving events and schools on tracks progressing at your own comfort level with instructors is very good starting point, and from a mechanics point of view less wear and tear on the the car.
P.S. Re: 928, Can I have the red one for the same price?
Laura @ Hergesheimer's
I agree with the comments about autocrossing. Down here in So Cal quite a few are on parking lots with the turns marked by cones. Many newbies get frustrated by the cones and lose the feel for the road. Driving events and schools on tracks progressing at your own comfort level with instructors is very good starting point, and from a mechanics point of view less wear and tear on the the car.
P.S. Re: 928, Can I have the red one for the same price?
Laura @ Hergesheimer's
02-06-2003, 05:31 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Good point. as funny as it sounds, things happen a lot slower on a road course. with students, its almost impossible to coach on a autoX course. so many things going on, you end up just pointing and yelling. (LEFT! RIGHT! BRAKE, GAS!! Ahhhh)
on a road course, you can talk a little more about the approaches to the turns off the main straights, and how to exit turns. My opinion is once those basics are learned, they can be transfered back to the AutoX arean easily.
Hey, but any track time is good time!!
MK
on a road course, you can talk a little more about the approaches to the turns off the main straights, and how to exit turns. My opinion is once those basics are learned, they can be transfered back to the AutoX arean easily.
Hey, but any track time is good time!!
MK
02-06-2003, 08:48 PM
#14
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Palting, where are you that there are 3 tracks within 90 minutes. I'd love to see a list of the tracks you toured.
Great pics by the way. Glad to see the C4S in ACTION.
Great pics by the way. Glad to see the C4S in ACTION.
02-06-2003, 08:55 PM
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Zman, no offense but..."I DO NOT recommend what Kent said: while sliding around a parking lot may be fun, and may help you get used to the sliding sensation, there is: a.) no instruction, so you could be learning improper techniques, and b.) no way of telling if you are improving your skills or not."
...it would take a pretty unaware person, especially one that says he's read books, and has listened to you guys to not know exactly what to do and know whether or not there is improvement. I guess you could admit that since you possibly didn't learn how to do the proper techniques without instruction, it would be fair to say that someone could and surely has...just like people walking onto professional and college sports teams with no official training. it does happen ...and cannot hurt the feedback and learning experience. I never said DEs etc aren't better, but some people don't think of it on their own that they can improve their driving a little bit everytime they get in a car...even if it's only awareness of the car and the surroundings.
you guys have been barking "seat time", I try to agree and somehow someone justifies a way to disagree. i guess i should know that since i'm not "track proven" then i'm not worthy of a good idea.
...it would take a pretty unaware person, especially one that says he's read books, and has listened to you guys to not know exactly what to do and know whether or not there is improvement. I guess you could admit that since you possibly didn't learn how to do the proper techniques without instruction, it would be fair to say that someone could and surely has...just like people walking onto professional and college sports teams with no official training. it does happen ...and cannot hurt the feedback and learning experience. I never said DEs etc aren't better, but some people don't think of it on their own that they can improve their driving a little bit everytime they get in a car...even if it's only awareness of the car and the surroundings.
you guys have been barking "seat time", I try to agree and somehow someone justifies a way to disagree. i guess i should know that since i'm not "track proven" then i'm not worthy of a good idea.