New for 2003, PCA has moved only the Euro Cup cars from D class to their own GTC-1 class, but have left RSAs and US version Cup Cars in D class.

I'm interested in finding if any Rennlisters have either US Cup Cars or Euro Cup Cars and what their reaction is.

My understanding is that BOTH the US and Euro Cup Cars come with 260hp engines (euro advertised as 265 but that is euro hp, not us hp) and has been confirmed via Porsche tech spec book. It appears that both cars are in fact the same from a performance standpoint, but PCA has separated them.

Moving to GTC-1 creates several problems for Euro Cup Car owners.

1) Have to return to exact cup car wheels which I believe are 17" Cup wheels, the same as a 91/92 Turbo. Currently in D you can run 18" of any brand, any size.

2) The cars must be returned to the movable wing as raced in the series. Many cup car owners have put RS 3.8 wings on their cars which is permitted in D.

3) Weight can be reduced to 2425lbs, however, to get below 2550 or so will require some creative thinking. In D, they run the same weight at RSA at 2760.

 

It appears to be true that the Euro's have been moved. There may be a small hitch in that PCA did not follow its own protocal in its rule procedure, but be that as it may, I think you can see where they want US.
I plan on NOT changing wheels, or putting the old mech. wing back on. I guess, they will have to bump me up a class, to GTC-2. I tell ya, with slicks and some 335lbs lighter these cars WILL be very competitive with these drivers So, it should provide for some fast close racing. Winning is fun, but the goal in PCA is to get the workers choise award in my book. 2003 should be fun if nothing else interesting.
<img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" />

 

[quote][QB]My understanding is that BOTH the US and Euro Cup Cars come with 260hp engines (euro advertised as 265 but that is euro hp, not us hp) and has been confirmed via Porsche tech spec book. It appears that both cars are in fact the same from a performance standpoint, but PCA has separated them.QB]<hr></blockquote>

The US cup cars had equipment to make them US legal, including airbags, standard seats, US spec bumpers, door-less rear package tray, door beams, alarm and central locking, 77L gas tank, power windows, and electrical harness to support it. The net effect is the weight is the US Cup car is + 335 lbs (2760 vs 2425) heavier than the Euro Cup car. That may have something to do with why the separate categories.

 

It seems as if a racer with a US spec 964 Cup car, could strip some weight out of it, ad ballast back in to get it back up to the minium and basically have the car set up just like a Euro Spec 964 Cup with added ballast. I get the feeling that the racers who have Euro 964 Cup cars are not that happy with the rule change.

 

The correct (as raced) 17" wheels are 8" front and 9.5" rear, single piece Cup style (looks like Turbo) in aluminum.

Also correct 18" wheels would be 8" front and 9.5" rear three piece "Speedline for Porsche" the center of which looks like those used on the 3.6 Turbo.

 

My understanding was that the US cup series never took off and that all the imported cars were then converted to street cars. Surely that would have added weight back into the car compared to the Euro cup cars, same as Bill said.

I would imagine that these cup cars would run in GT2 if they are not brought back to cup spec.

 

In 2002, the cup cars were required to meet the same weight requirement as RSAs in D class at 2760. What is the difference if the weight is made up from power windows air bags, etc or ballast other than distribution. To that extent, the US and Euro cars are the same.

The US Cup car remains in D class and still enjoys the 15hp power enhancement, close ratio transmission, Turbo brakes, lighter body and glass and the ability to run more camber.

If you can find a set of the 18" Speedline for Porsche wheels you could update to 93 specs, but they are not easily located and extremely expensive.

I guess the point is that the 90-93 Cup cars are so close to the road going versions, moreso than a 993 supercup car which is significantly different in almos all respects than a 993C2. Additionally, the differences betweent he US and Euro are slight and weight related which can be fixed. If one moves, the other should as well.

 

So the 964 cup cars are going to race in GTC1 with the 993 cup cars?

 

No, 993 Super Cups are now GTC2 & 996 Super Cups are GTC3, I think

 

While I understand that the euro cup folks would not be happy, this rule change seems consistent with PCA stock class rules. The euro cup cars were not meant for street use, which is required to run in a stock class. I don't believe this is a rule change, but rather an initial classification of the euro cup cars. It would seem to be a risky strategy to buy a euro cup hoping to run it in a stock class. I also wonder how easy it is to remove 335 lbs from a us cup and how safe it is to add 335 lbs to a euro cup.

 

There are some valid reasons to form a GTC1 class for the 964 Euro Cups. But in the interest of better racing and more competition the Euro Cups and the USA Cups should not be split up. The new GTC1 class will be very small - perhaps even smaller than the dwindling GTC class for 993 Cups. When a USA Cup is prepared for racing following the Andial spec in whole or in part, it ends up looking exactly like a Euro Cup. They should run together. Better for the racers, better for the spectators, better for the PCA Club racing program, better for everybody. It's not so much a technical matter - it's all about the racing.

 

[quote]Originally posted by JC in NY:
<strong>There are some valid reasons to form a GTC1 class for the 964 Euro Cups. But in the interest of better racing and more competition the Euro Cups and the USA Cups should not be split up. The new GTC1 class will be very small - perhaps even smaller than the dwindling GTC class for 993 Cups. When a USA Cup is prepared for racing following the Andial spec in whole or in part, it ends up looking exactly like a Euro Cup. They should run together. Better for the racers, better for the spectators, better for the PCA Club racing program, better for everybody. It's not so much a technical matter - it's all about the racing.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I agree with you JC but I would think it would have been better to bump these guys up a class to C instead. Putting them in their own class basically eliminates any competition they have. How many Euro Cup cars show up at any given race? 2 or 3? Even if you added in the US Cup cars would there be enough cars that a racer wasn't guaranteed a podium finish?

 

[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>
I agree with you JC but I would think it would have been better to bump these guys up a class to C instead. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly Greg. That would be much better. RS Americas, originally misclassed in D by someone's oversight, were kept in D for 2003 even though a factory RS America never weighed 2760 lbs. Yet in the interests of better racing the car will remain there - and in the better interests of the RS America owners who already spent lots of dough to run them in D. If Euro Cups, USA Cups and RS Americas all ran in D you'd have better racing. OK, so bump the Cups to C. Still better than orphaning them in a GTC1 preservation class.

 

I have kept my mouth shut long enough. I think that PCA made a huge mistake. Changing the classification of the euro cars achieved what?????

I started this last year by writing a letter to PCA asking why they let RSA run at 2760. I own and race a 964 US Carrera Cup. When I asked how PCA came up with the weight on these cars, PCA said they took the published weight. Ask ANY US Carrera Cup owner and they'll tell you, the car weights less than 2760 with all the street trim.

(If anyone is interested I have the facts on the US Cups from Germany)

I called Germany and got the correct weight, then gave it to PCA&gt; the est thinh I know they came up with a rule change on the Euro Cup. First off, I don't think there is a major difference in the Euro and the US Cup if they are racing at the same weight, Second, how many Euro Cups are racing in PCA? They made a big deal over a small number of people. The Wessiach published weight on the US Carrera Cup is 2690. Far less than the 2760 they are racing at.

PCA needs to listen more to us racers. They are not the only venue and definately not the cheapest to race.

Our Club racing should be fun, this beaucratic bull makes it less fun and more expensive.

Bottom Line: There needs to be a better system to the classification of race classes in general. Do yopu honestly feel that the system works? I think that no one out there is cheating... and Santa is living at my house as well!

Better start by checking the GTC3 class, how many are running the "Speedvision Option" that provides 40 additional bhp. That doesn't seem fair to the regular GT3 cups does it?

I would give my input on how we should do a class system, but honestly, by my dealings with PCA Club Racing officals, they don't seem to care. My most recent example was the letter about weight, they did nothing but class out the euro cups? We need less people that feel "This is the way we are going to do it" and more people that feel "Wow that might just work!"

Just my angry two cents!!!

Jim Newman
92 Carrera Cup
99 996

 

Guys... While I don't drive a Cup car or compete in D Stock know what it is like to have misclassified car.

My 84 944 is really misclassed.

It has stock motor, stock calipers, stock transmission and is in many ways less developed than most PCA I Stock cars, but is in GT4S since I have removed all interior and non-essential racing components. The car is currently 2450lbs vs a stock min of 2779

I can see the desire to keep stock classes stock and rules as such, but there seems to be nothing in between Stock (or Prepared) and the GT classes.

That really leaves me out in the cold. Heck in most races I would be put in to the faster of the race groups. Even if I were the only car in class with stock class run group I could find a car to run with. In the GT group its is mostly just staying out of people's way.

At least you guys have the Cup classes to run in as a medium in between the Stock and GT classes.

My guess is that modifications from GTC1 (as it is called for 2003) would put you in GT2 rather than the next Cup class.

Seems to me like the PCA is looking to have 3 classes to maintain the ideal of Carrera Cup. That is fairly equal cars. To me it makes sense to have a Cup class for the C2 cars (both Euro and US Spec), one for the 993 Cup Cars, and One for the 996 Cup cars. Then the goal is to keep these cars as close to the orgianl Supercup/Carrera Cup specs as possible.


Now for my car... I'd like to see a class in between stock and GT or a 2 stock class bump for a car like mine!