Vampire

I am strongly considering a roll bar for my ’86 911 sunroof coupe. I use it for DE’s, mostly at BIR which has very high speed turns. I use it a little on the street and am not planning on a cage at this time. I have Recaro SRD’s that are mounted lower and moved back an extra inch because I am tall. I use 5 point harnesses.

What do all of you recommend for brands? I have heard DAS have a small issue with SRD seats. Has anyone installed an OG Racing bar?

Any known issues with having the seat back as far as it goes, plus a little bit more?

Other advice? Thanks in advance.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

I have had the Prototype OG 993 bar in my car for a year and it is fine. It is not truly bolt in like the other pseudo bars by DAS Sport and others. It requires a stout plate to be welded to the inside of the car that the lower legs of the bar mount to. The rear mounts are through bolted through the fender. It can be removed, but after the first time I did that, it hasn't left the car since.

As for seat fitment, i am 6'3" and have the seat all the way back without a problem - they use a cross bar that is actually bent towards the back of the car for extra room. The diaganol bar on the other hand runs from the top corner behind the driver down to the lower mount on the passenger seat, and this limits the passenger seat travel. Its okay though, so I don't worry about it.

I am sure the OG bar for your car would be similar to what I have described. I have been to the shop where the bars are actually fabricated and I can speak for the qality of the work and the amount of bars they turn out for OG. I am extremely happy with mine and would recommend it for anyone that takes safety seriously.

Let me know if you would like any other info. if you have specific questions, call and ask for Bill Love - the owner. Tell him you're a friend of mine and he'll take the time to answer all your questions. And no I'm not affiliated with them other than I give them free advertising (on my suit and my car) because they are a stand up group and support our local PCA chapter pretty heavily.

E. J.

JJG

[quote] the other pseudo bars by DAS Sport and others <hr></blockquote>

E.J. - I interpret this as negative feedback re: the DAS bar. Since I was anticipating getting one, is there a problem with it?

Rick964

I would recommend looking at the Kirk Racing bars. I have one in my 964 Cab and it seems very well built (to my untrained eye) and looks good as well. For my car the bar's front legs mount to the floor with 4 bolts each and a backing plate. The rear legs mount to a horizontal bar that is bolted in to all 4 rear seat seat belt bolt locations.

RSAErick

The Kirk Racing roll bar is significantly cheaper than the DAS bar too - less than half as much. I just ordered one...

E. J. - 993 Alumni

[quote]Originally posted by JJG:
<strong>E.J. - I interpret this as negative feedback re: the DAS bar. Since I was anticipating getting one, is there a problem with it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

JJG,

My problem with that bar is absolutly supported by my untrained eye and no engineering background what so ever. I don't think the rear seat belt mounting bolts are the strongest places to attach the rear roll bar mounting points. There is no backing plate and only one bolt to take all the force. I also think the front points are mounted to the lower front seat belt bolts - I have the same concerns there as well.

Please take this for what it is, I am not bad mouthing any particular product, just airing some concerns in the name of safety for all.

E. J.

DTFASTBEAR

I'm going to agree with E.J. on the DAS bar, and I've got a *little* engineering training (BS - Mech E) to bolster my opinion

The rear mount on the DAS bar is the weak link. There is absolutely no question about that. There is one 8mm bolt that is oriented to that it is in sheer (sideways force across the bolt - as opposed to tension or compression - inline with the bolt) if there is a compressive force on the bar/car.

I've got a DAS bar. I love it. It's quality and fitment are first rate. However, after carefully considering it, I decided that the rear mounts were not strong enough for me. I take the car on the track a lot, but the real deciding factor was that my wife drives the car on the track too. As soon as there was some question about the safety of the bar in my mind, I knew I had to do something...

So I had some new rear mounts fabricated for the bar. I now have 4 bolts, 3 in tension, for the rear mount. Wil Ferch has been asking me for some pictures of the mounts for some time, so I guess I'll go ahead and take some and post them soon.

I also talked to the Dougherty's about this (the guys that make the bar) and they said that "the bar is a compromise so that it can bolt in with no holes drilled". If you are REALLY concerned about safety on the track rather than simply "meeting the requirements" of having a rollbar, I'd look elsewhere because this bar is a compromise.

That's my 2 cents.

Dean

Greg Fishman

I would be carefully of anything that just bolts through the floor pan. It is very thin metal and in a severe accident the bar could be pushed down through the floor. I would much rather see it welded to the side plates/frame of the car.

A930Rocket

I'm no engineer, but one potential problem I see with Kirk's roll bar is the distance between the main hoop and the rear diagonals. They seem awfully close together and look like they would fold up in a rollover?

On the other hand, I did go to his shop and watched him make one for my '83 Mustang convertible years ago for Solo 1 events and it was a good job. The diagonals extended half way into the trunk space.

Just my .02

Jim

E. J. - 993 Alumni

[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>I would be carefully of anything that just bolts through the floor pan. It is very thin metal and in a severe accident the bar could be pushed down through the floor. I would much rather see it welded to the side plates/frame of the car.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed Greg, My OG bar repuires very stout steel plates welded to the side raised part of the frame/car. The rears bolt through the interior fender well with a stout foot on the inside of the car and a stout plate on the outside with the nuts welded to it.

I feel pretty safe with it.

E. J.

PhilW

Dark Angle's premise is faulty. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
He should skip the bar and go straight to the cage because he will not be happy until he is Club Racing. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Phil W.

Vampire

Phil, You are correct about my desire to club race, but I wouldn't be competitive enough in F class with an '86. I will be looking for a RS in few years for my club racer!

JOESELLSVW

First off, I work for Dougherty Automotive. Even before I worked there (I'm the used car manager), I used the RB 1 bar in my 87 911. To be honest I take offense at the term "pseudo" being applied to our product.

The fit and finish of our bars is of the highest standard, second only to a custom fit bar/cage. While we don't crash test 911's after we've installed the bars on purpose, we do have pictures and testimonials from clients that have been in roll over situations in both DE events as well as club races. The bars have held up tremendously and in several instances have been reused in the owner's next car without any modifcation, proving that the bar maintained it's shape and integrity. All DAS SportSystem hardware is AN or aircraft grade, a standard developed by the military for use on Air Force and Navy planes and helicopters, hence the "AN" designation. We have never experienced a failure of these bolts on our bars. All of our bars are TIG welded by airframe certified welders and meet the requirements for SCCA Solo events as well as PCA Racing (stock classes only) and Driver's Ed programs. As for problems with race seats and our bars, this is sometimes encountered by customers who've upgraded to race seats after ordering the bar with harness guide loops that were spaced for stock seats. Race seats allow for the harnesses to run through the seat rather than around the seat as the case with a stock unit. These guides can be removed and or repositioned as they aren't structural components to the bar. With stock seats full seat travel (forward and backward) is compromised only by the rake adjustment of the seat. Those long in the torso with sunroof cars will feel this to a higher degree. The installation of race seats on stock rails varies the space deficit. Often times when a taller customer has elected to upgrade to a race seat, we custom mount the seat to offer the best fit regarding seat position and headroom.

As for the engineering of our product, Don *** is our chief engineer. Don has been engineering race cars for the better part of the last forty years. During his tenure with GM he was closely involved with the Chaparral cars and the Trans Am effort with Mark Donohue and Roger Penske. Don joined the Penske team to provide development engineering on the Javelin Trans Am race car. He was instrumental in the 1972 Indy winning McLaren as well as the 917/10 and 917/30 development with Mark Donohue and the Porsche engineering department. Don remained with Penske through 1978. He frequently attends PCA events with Mr.Happy, his 84 911. Don has installed an RB 1 in his 911. I can't reveal all of Don's R&D surprises on Mr. Happy, but if you see a Kiln red 84 911 in your mirrors at a track event just point him by, that's no 3.2 in there! Our fabrication and roll bar design is handled by Don Kean, another Penske veteran. Don was Penske's race mechanic when Roger still drove in the early sixties and was chief fabricator on the Javelin and 917 cars. Bill Dougherty was over the wall crew for the USAC Penske team and was part of the Indy championship team. We have intense pride in our products and know that with the years of real time track experience that our team brings to work everyday, we build the best bars on the market.

That being said, our bars are intended for DE events and are designed to be bolt in and afford the owner the luxury of removing the bar without negatively impacting the car's value. Our bars often sell used on E Bay and retain excellent resale value. For racing purposes a welded cage is absolutely the best route, so long as the bar/cage is attached to the longitudinal frame rails of the vehicle. Bolting through the floorpan is virtually meaningless and provides only a false sense of safety and negligible improvements in chassis stiffness. Mr. Fishman is absolutely correct on this point.

We've been doing this for about a decade and have fitted bars into almost all models of the 911. Recently we've added a bar for the 996 Cab as well as fabricated a custom cage for a GT 2. Pictures will be on our website soon. The last thing we will ever do is bad mouth a competitor's product, it's both unprofessional and doesn't serve in the interest of our customers. Feel free to call us at the shop for any questions regarding our DAS SportSystem products, just ask for Bill, Ryan or Joe (me)and we'll be happy to answer and advise. All of us at the shop have installed the bars in our own cars and in customer's and club member's Porsches and can assist you. Joe McCormick 610-692-6039 <a href="http://www.das-sport.com" target="_blank">www.das-sport.com</a>

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Joe, I am not badmouthing your product - I considered your bar for a while before buying the other bar.

You say your bar is legal for SCCA Solo II, PCA Club Racing Stock Classes and Drivers Ed. I won't argue with you about the Drivers ed designation, but do question the PCA club racing legality as it does not offer Metal to metal contact in the rear, as clearly required by rule book. It is technically not legal since the bar sits on the carpet with the seat belt bolt supporting it.

I am glad your product has proved so strong in rollover tests - that is the true test. I recognize that most DE participants want a removable bar and that is what you sell.

I hope it continues to sell well for your company.

E. J.

Carrera51

EJ:
I asked a PCA Scrutineer about the DAS rollbar for 964s. I was told it does meet the minimum requirements and is OK for a car running in it's true stock class. As we all know, prepared cars require a full cage.

I saw a 911 that went over on its roof a VIR. The DAS bar held up and the driver walked away. Definately a nice option for those who do not want to install a full cage and keep their interior intact.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />