pig4bill

I'm looking for a car I can drive a lot on the street but run on the track too. I've gone through the usual 944 vs 911 Carrera vs 930 vs 993, etc. arguments in my head. Then I remembered from my autocross days how I never had clearance for my noggin with helmet in any cars with a roof. I had to tilt the seat back like a lowrider. That's fine for a 90 second autocross course, but won't do on the track.

So now I'm considering a cab. I know there's a stiffness and performance penalty, but how bad is it? Is there a "street" roll bar that's approved by the clubs yet still works with the top?

Rick964

While it depends on the club that your run with many people are using Autopower or <a href="http://www.das-sport.com" target="_blank">DAS Sport</a> roll bars. I know that POC is now accepting the DAS bar as are some regions of the PCA.

Dbltime

Stick with the coupe. Replace the stock seats with race seats and set them to the proper height.

UrbanSasquatch

Carlos Casabal club races his '84 Cab. With the top DOWN. He's the only person I've ever seen do that on the east coast, however. He's got a full cage that adds back some of the torsional stiffness, but I'm sure it's nowhere near that of a coupe. Also, I think arm restraints are required if you run in DE top-down. So query how serious you anticipate getting- Personally I like Bill's suggestion but then again I have a '71 Non-Sunroof Coupe with racing seats and rise to the towering height of 69 inches.

pig4bill

The problem with real race seats for me is that I hurt my back awhile ago and I cannot deal with high bolsters. I'm also wide of keester. What's left of my hair usually brushes the headliner, so the seat would have to be lowered considerably to have enough space for a helmet on my melon.

Is the cab really that bad? Maybe I'll stick to autocross.

A930Rocket

Bill,
I'm 6'4" and have a 911 Turbo coupe with a full cage. Talk about squeezing in! I replaced my stock seat with a custom built aluminum seat by Butler Built in Concord, NC. They build seats for a lot of the Winston Cup teams. <a href="http://www.butlerbuilt.net/" target="_blank">http://www.butlerbuilt.net/</a> They have up to 18" wide seats in stock and can make the custom seats for about $400 and I'm wider than 18"!

Kirkey is another one that makes a good road race seat. <a href="http://www.kirkeyracing.com/page3a.html" target="_blank">http://www.kirkeyracing.com/page3a.html</a>

Mine is bolted right to the seat rails as low as it can go. Even then I have to scrunch down just a hair to have my helmet clear the headliner. Don't stick with just autocrosses. Once you track your car for 20-30 minutes at a time all day, you'll never go back to autocrossing again. Higher speeds and lots more track time!

Jim

pig4bill

Thanks for your response. This car will get 98% of it's miles on the street. If I got a real Kirkey racing seat, I would literally have to see my chiropractor every time I got in or out of the car. I also have to slide the seat all the way back to get in or out. When you say "bolted to the seat rails", does that mean you can still adjust it for and aft?

A930Rocket

I removed the entire seat and slider to give me max head height so the seat is directly bolted to the sheetmetal that the factory seat slider is bolted to, thus the seat is not adjustable. Brian Keith Smith has the Kirkey Road Race seats in his 930 and I believe he leaves them in all the time. Maybe he can post a picture of his interior. They look nicer than mine.

Since my car is not is daily driver, I don't mind the in and out situation. In fact, I'm so used to it, it's no problem now. Below is a picture of mine. My old 911 was blue, so I need to recover it in black to look better.

BTW: With me being 6'4" and my wife at 5'2" guess who is the only one to drive it.

[img]file:///C:/Digital%20Camera%20Pictures/911%20Turbo%20Pics/930%20left%20side%20interior%202%20Resized.jpg[/img]

Kirkey Road Race seat.

Eric in Chicago

[quote]Originally posted by pig4bill:
So now I'm considering a cab. I know there's a stiffness and performance penalty, but how bad is it? Is there a "street" roll bar that's approved by the clubs yet still works with the top?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

A Cab is not a bad choice if your only going to be doing a few DE's a year. I am 6' tall, track my Cab 10-15 times a year. Stock seats were fine with a DAS roll bar. Put Recaro SRD's in this year and that gave me even more room under the bar. The roll bar will help with the flex as will a strut bar. The only problem with a Cab is that if you get hooked on DE's like I did, you will upgrade the car with all the goodies and should you ever decide to go Club Racing you will have to start over with a coupe.

Z-man

If you're looking at tracking a 996 Cabrio, check with the tracks you frequent! While the 996 does have pop-up rollover devices, tracks like Lime Rock and VIR require visible roll over protection on convertable cars.

Also: more and more tracks are adopting the broomstick test: you must be able to fit under a broomstick that is placed over you, atop the windscreen and your rollbar. If you have rubbing in a coupe, you most likely will not pass the broomstick test in a stock cabrio.

There's a guy in my PCA (NNJR) who modified his Boxster seat: he made the bottom of the seat removable, and uses a thick foam cushion in place of the seat bottom for DE events. It gives him 3-4 inches of clearance so he passes the broomstick test. (He's my height, about 6'2")

HOWEVER: IMO, a coupe is a car that is better suited for the track. Granted, most of your time in the car will be on the street, but cabrios on the track just scare me! In the event of a roll over, there is much, much less protection between you and whatever may be in your way if you're in a ragtop!

At 6'2", I fit just fine in my 944 Coupe. What I have found that helps is a set of racing harnesses: they 'lower' me by a good 1.5 to 2 inches! You see, a six point harness will push you down into your seat, instead of just sitting atop of the seat cushion! Maybe you can find someone with a harness setup and see if that gives you the clearance you desire!

Hope this helps!
-Z.

Jaws911

Guys..

Ok, as I have been lurking all over this website for several months now, I note that the issue of DAS rollbars, safety. and tracking cabs has come up several times, esp. in this group (racing).
Some of you might remember that even the issue of shear strength of the rear bolts of a DAS bar was considered in a recent post.

Here's my question - I track my '86 stock cab just once or twice a season (I've had it for 3 years). I am in the lower run group, (obviously) and have no real desire to "move up" - i just really enjoy the time spent (Ok,its true that on Sunday, drivng home, I'm totally stoked, but after a few weeks I'm calmed down).
How often have you guys seen a rollover? - or a serious accident? Especially in the lower run groups?

The DAS bar is a great compromise for enjoying my Posche to the fullest - (its clear to me that deeper involvement at my $$$ level would ultimately lead to selling the 911 and trailering a 944! I'm really not there yet)

I understand "preparing for the worst case scenario", I've felt pretty safe so far - I'm just curious what the goups experience has been...

Fred L.

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by Jaws911:
<strong>...How often have you guys seen a rollover? - or a serious accident? Especially in the lower run groups?... Fred L.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It is the lower and middle run groups that, IMO, are the most dangerous! Too many drivers think they know what they are doing, and often do the wrong thing! Like those guys that smack the brakes in the middle of a corner!

Honestly, I have not seen a rollover or serious accident in my short DE experience. "Safe, Serious Fun" is NNJR's DE motto. And they live by it! HOWEVER, the risk of rollover is far greater at DE than street driving: that's why I feel cabrios and DE do not work well together!

BTW: The Ferrari club's DE program allows convertibles to run WITHOUT any added rollover protection! (IE: No rollbar required!) Crazy, IMO.

I guess it's all a matter of your own comfort level and preference. While I'm still a newbie at this too, I've already invested in a harness setup and fire extinguisher. While others focus on performance mods, I'd rather focus on safety upgrades.
-Z.

Matt

Fred,

I see that you're from NY, so this info may apply directly -

At Lime Rock there have been, as I recall, five rollovers at DE events I have attended. One was in the green (beginner) group, I believe the rest have been in upper groups. All coupes, no injuries other than bumps, bruises and sore backs/necks. There have been a significant number of hard crashes (in all run groups) not involving rollovers, and a good handful of cars totalled. (In a recent non-PCA event there I saw the ambulance take an instructor to the hospital for a look-see after a crash in a beginner group).

I don't think I've seen a rollover in DE's at other tracks, but have seen enough hard contact to know it can happen.

I don't want to paint an overly grim picture, I've been to plenty of events where there's been no damage at all, hardly a wheel off the track surface. But it's not a question of preparing for a theoretical risk, it really can happen.

Matt

A930Rocket

I used to DE a Mustang convertible (before I bought my 930) with a roll bar only, as seen below. It definitely made me think twice about going fast.



Last weekend, at Road Atlanta, this Mustang convertible driven by a very experienced driver, missed a shift at turn 12, spun out and hit the inside wall hard as seen below. He had a full cage which made all the difference between him walking away and being carried away. I was just in front of him and watched it unfold in my rear view mirror. I'm not trying to scare anyone, but even the most experienced drivers have their day.

pig4bill

Thanks again everyone. It sounds like a cab will probably work for me. I have no fear of getting hooked on club racing, I don't have the time to pursue that. The broomstick test would give me trouble though, so I better check on that.

As far as a cab being "scary" compared to a coupe, I'm guessing a cab with a rollbar is stouter than a coupe without one.

BTW, rollovers do happen often enough at DE's. There are videos all over the net. Remember, it doesn't matter if you've got Schumacher skill if the moron behind you rear-ends you under braking for a fast corner. See the series in Grassroots Motorsports magazine where the newbie clobbered a guy in his first race by overshooting his braking point.