Champ Car drivers are inferior to F1 drivers?
12-21-2006, 12:01 PM
#61
There are good points on both sides, no doubt. There's no denying the fact that there were some questionable moments in his career, both from a team standpoint and a tactical standpoint. I still think he was a great F1 champion. And I never saw him place blame on his team, or his tires, etc, when he was losing. Ultra-competitive, exciting to watch, always a class act.
I'll remind you all that even Senna used questionable tactics on the track, on more than one occasion. And nobody questions his greatness.
I'll remind you all that even Senna used questionable tactics on the track, on more than one occasion. And nobody questions his greatness.
12-21-2006, 12:13 PM
#62
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Senna, was always nailed for driving hard , unfairly , rough whatever,But Nobody has ever been at the level of schumacher. I will agree and have said , Schumacher is the most successful F1 driver of all time BY A LONGWAY, but a class act he is not Better than his teammates YES! the best driver in F1 since senna's death in 94 ,Yes , But the fact is he has manipulated his way to 7 W/C . In closing i will place this in perspective for you , upon advising schumacher that he now had more victories than senna making him at the time 2nd on the all win list , he broke into tears!!! The fact that he had surpassed his idol , the greatman, he himself had considerd to be the greatest driver of alltime was too much for him to bare 
It shows that he was .still Human afterall
It shows that he was .still Human afterall
12-21-2006, 01:54 PM
#63
Race Director
Regarding Scummie's manipulated WCs, let's also not forget that his car was discrovered with active "Launch Control" software and he was giveni an hall pass. This after the FIA promised draconian measures for anyone caught cheating in this area. I guess that was anyone but Scummie. If the FIA were honorable, you could have scratched at least one championship and perhaps more.
I love the photo where it looks like Bernie has his hand on Scummie's crotch. It's amost believable. OK, maybe not, but well.... almost.
I love the photo where it looks like Bernie has his hand on Scummie's crotch. It's amost believable. OK, maybe not, but well.... almost.
12-21-2006, 03:09 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Senna, was always nailed for driving hard , unfairly , rough whatever,But Nobody has ever been at the level of schumacher. I will agree and have said , Schumacher is the most successful F1 driver of all time BY A LONGWAY, but a class act he is not Better than his teammates YES! the best driver in F1 since senna's death in 94 ,Yes , But the fact is he has manipulated his way to 7 W/C . In closing i will place this in perspective for you , upon advising schumacher that he now had more victories than senna making him at the time 2nd on the all win list , he broke into tears!!! The fact that he had surpassed his idol , the greatman, he himself had considerd to be the greatest driver of alltime was too much for him to bare
It shows that he was .still Human afterall
It shows that he was .still Human afterall
To me the biggest disappointment is that MS never allowed to have good team mates or equal equipment & treatment. He should've had i.e. Hakkinen as his EQUAL team mate (BTW, Hakkinen was ok for Schumi coming to McLaren with equal terms, Schumi wasn't).
George,
Schumi is the only driver in F1 history who has obeyed the black flag penalty after the race (1998 Silverstone)...
Or how about 1994 black flag? Again at Silverstone when he passed Damon during warm up lap, got a black flag penalty but didn't obey it, just kep driving all of the 60 laps...
Last edited by Flying Finn; 12-21-2006 at 04:01 PM.
12-21-2006, 03:27 PM
#65
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This is interesting , maybe a list of everone's top 5 or 10 F1 drivers.
Mine,
1. Fangio
2. Senna
3. Jim Clark
4. Jackie stewart
5. lauda.
6. Prost
7. Schumacher
8. Fittipaldi
9 Piquet .
10. Andretti .( Mario.)
There are a lot of other great guys who could have made the lower half of the list 9 or 10th as i would have liked to have added Mansell but thought andretti
versatility was superior for the time ..I'm also a big fan of Dan Gurney , this guy built his own F1 car and won in it , Jim clark , Aj Foyt to name a few also thought the best of him ..
Maybe a new topic for this
another interesting fact , i had just noticed , my top ten have 33 W/C's between them .
Mine,
1. Fangio
2. Senna
3. Jim Clark
4. Jackie stewart
5. lauda.
6. Prost
7. Schumacher
8. Fittipaldi
9 Piquet .
10. Andretti .( Mario.)
There are a lot of other great guys who could have made the lower half of the list 9 or 10th as i would have liked to have added Mansell but thought andretti
versatility was superior for the time ..I'm also a big fan of Dan Gurney , this guy built his own F1 car and won in it , Jim clark , Aj Foyt to name a few also thought the best of him ..
Maybe a new topic for this
another interesting fact , i had just noticed , my top ten have 33 W/C's between them .
Last edited by A.Wayne; 12-21-2006 at 03:54 PM.
12-21-2006, 03:58 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
This is interesting , maybe a list of everone's top 5 or 10 F1 drivers.
Mine,
1. Fangio
2. Senna
3. Jim Clark
4. Jackie stewart
5. lauda.
6. Prost
7. Schumacher
8. Fittipaldi
9 Piquet .
10. Andretti .( Mario.)...
Mine,
1. Fangio
2. Senna
3. Jim Clark
4. Jackie stewart
5. lauda.
6. Prost
7. Schumacher
8. Fittipaldi
9 Piquet .
10. Andretti .( Mario.)...
Here's my top 5:
1. Gilles Villeneuve
2. Ayrton Senna
3. Jim Clark (I had mental breakdown and got Hunt & Clark mixed up, even though I love Hunt for his talent and even more so, the whole playboy persona, Clark was what I meant).
4. Fangio
5. Alain Prost
12-21-2006, 04:12 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by Flying Finn
+1 Schumi was/is very very good but not as good as Senna and IMO not in top 3 ever, maybe 5th or something (my top 3: Gilles Villeneuve, Ayrton Senna, Jim Clark).
To me the biggest disappointment is that MS never allowed to have good team mates or equal equipment & treatment. He should've had i.e. Hakkinen as his EQUAL team mate (BTW, Hakkinen was ok for Schumi coming to McLaren with equal terms, Schumi wasn't).
George,
Schumi is the only driver in F1 history who has obeyed the black flag penalty after the race (1998 Silverstone)...
Or how about 1994 black flag? Again at Silverstone when he passed Damon during warm up lap, got a black flag penalty but didn't obey it, just kep driving all of the 60 laps...
To me the biggest disappointment is that MS never allowed to have good team mates or equal equipment & treatment. He should've had i.e. Hakkinen as his EQUAL team mate (BTW, Hakkinen was ok for Schumi coming to McLaren with equal terms, Schumi wasn't).
George,
Schumi is the only driver in F1 history who has obeyed the black flag penalty after the race (1998 Silverstone)...
Or how about 1994 black flag? Again at Silverstone when he passed Damon during warm up lap, got a black flag penalty but didn't obey it, just kep driving all of the 60 laps...
GV ? Fast, sure , but completly reckless/brainless and because of his death (inflicted by pure stupidity with Maas ) he is elavated to a higher level, he WAS NOT a complete driver. Hell, Rindt would put Hunt /GV to sleep and had easily the same or more talent than Lauda ,Senna, Prost ,MS etc.
Teammates ? Is that why Senna demanded (and got ) preferential treatment and special engines from Honda / Dennis over Prost ? Still with obvious equipment advantages, your beloved god Senna had to drive Prost of the road, PREMEDITATED !!!!! as he proudly bragged about it afterwards . Senna , like everybody else , won WC's only in the best car, fact, and for his qualifing efforts, big deal, his racepace was not even close to it and Prost easily had the measure on him in that respect. Maybe you are also forgetting that Senna screamed his lungs out at MH because he dared to be faster that him on some occasions or plain punched other drivers ..................he was a first rate *******, hated like MS by the british press and since his death his fans have elavated him to a myth. They usually consist of MS haters who cannot face reality when it comes to him .
Funny, that super god with a WDC/WC capable winning car had not much to show until his death in 94 season, a certain German driver had handled him with not too much difficulty with a huge points lead.
AND FOR THE LAST TIME, NO MODERN F1 TEAM WITH A 3-400 MIL BUDGET WILL HIRE TWO SUPERSTARS TO DUEL IT OUT FOR THE FANS OR THEIR" WHO IS BETTER" STUFF". The opposit is simply a dream cooked up on the net by armchair gladiators who would do the exact same if they would be in the same position.
But they are not and just vent their frustration of meagerness because they will not even be a footnote in history.
12-21-2006, 04:14 PM
#68
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FINN,
Giles , is not on my list, as one of my criteria for being one of the top ten best oF all time is , YOU MUST HAVE WON THE W/C AT LEAST ONCE. IT IS WHY THEY RACE , IF NOT ALL KIND OF HAS BEEN , COULD HAVE BEEN ,WOULD HAVE BEEN WOULD MAKE THE LIST..
While Giles was fast and exciting , he was never W/C, so if not for this criteria Sterling Moss would have also made my top 10...
Giles , is not on my list, as one of my criteria for being one of the top ten best oF all time is , YOU MUST HAVE WON THE W/C AT LEAST ONCE. IT IS WHY THEY RACE , IF NOT ALL KIND OF HAS BEEN , COULD HAVE BEEN ,WOULD HAVE BEEN WOULD MAKE THE LIST..
While Giles was fast and exciting , he was never W/C, so if not for this criteria Sterling Moss would have also made my top 10...
12-21-2006, 04:17 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by pole position
James Hunt ? LOL, you are getting pretty desperate. Is that the same guy who won because Lauda lost his cool ? Or the same guy who got so scared (after his WDC win ) that he got out despite driving stoned all of the time ? I like the guy but please, he ain't even close to Lauda, Stewart, Senna, Prost. MS etc.
GV ? Fast, sure , but completly reckless/brainless and because of his death (inflicted by pure stupidity with Maas ) he is elavated to a higher level, he WAS NOT a complete driver. Hell, Rindt would put Hunt /GV to sleep and had easily the same or more talent than Lauda ,Senna, Prost ,MS etc.
Teammates ? Is that why Senna demanded (and got ) preferential treatment and special engines from Honda / Dennis over Prost ? Still with obvious equipment advantages, your beloved god Senna had to drive Prost of the road, PREMEDITATED !!!!! as he proudly bragged about it afterwards . Senna , like everybody else , won WC's only in the best car, fact, and for his qualifing efforts, big deal, his racepace was not even close to it and Prost easily had the measure on him in that respect. Maybe you are also forgetting that Senna screamed his lungs out at MH because he dared to be faster that him on some occasions or plain punched other drivers ..................he was a first rate *******, hated like MS by the british press and since his death his fans have elavated him to a myth. They usually consist of MS haters who cannot face reality when it comes to him .
Funny, that super god with a WDC/WC capable winning car had not much to show until his death in 94 season, a certain German driver had handled him with not too much difficulty with a huge points lead.
AND FOR THE LAST TIME, NO MODERN F1 TEAM WITH A 3-400 MIL BUDGET WILL HIRE TWO SUPERSTARS TO DUEL IT OUT FOR THE FANS OR THEIR" WHO IS BETTER" STUFF". The opposit is simply a dream cooked up on the net by armchair gladiators who would do the exact same if they would be in the same position.
But they are not and just vent their frustration of meagerness because they will not even be a footnote in history.
GV ? Fast, sure , but completly reckless/brainless and because of his death (inflicted by pure stupidity with Maas ) he is elavated to a higher level, he WAS NOT a complete driver. Hell, Rindt would put Hunt /GV to sleep and had easily the same or more talent than Lauda ,Senna, Prost ,MS etc.
Teammates ? Is that why Senna demanded (and got ) preferential treatment and special engines from Honda / Dennis over Prost ? Still with obvious equipment advantages, your beloved god Senna had to drive Prost of the road, PREMEDITATED !!!!! as he proudly bragged about it afterwards . Senna , like everybody else , won WC's only in the best car, fact, and for his qualifing efforts, big deal, his racepace was not even close to it and Prost easily had the measure on him in that respect. Maybe you are also forgetting that Senna screamed his lungs out at MH because he dared to be faster that him on some occasions or plain punched other drivers ..................he was a first rate *******, hated like MS by the british press and since his death his fans have elavated him to a myth. They usually consist of MS haters who cannot face reality when it comes to him .
Funny, that super god with a WDC/WC capable winning car had not much to show until his death in 94 season, a certain German driver had handled him with not too much difficulty with a huge points lead.
AND FOR THE LAST TIME, NO MODERN F1 TEAM WITH A 3-400 MIL BUDGET WILL HIRE TWO SUPERSTARS TO DUEL IT OUT FOR THE FANS OR THEIR" WHO IS BETTER" STUFF". The opposit is simply a dream cooked up on the net by armchair gladiators who would do the exact same if they would be in the same position.
But they are not and just vent their frustration of meagerness because they will not even be a footnote in history.
Prost himself admitted this in a interview in F1 magazine 5 yrs ago , that senna was better and faster than him and in hindsight his biggest msitake was not accepting that , to beat him PROST OWN WORDS , SO GWAY!
In case you and others likewise don't get it , it is a list in your own opinion , it is neither right or wrong IT IS WHAT YOUR TEN BEST IS NOTHING ELSE , IT IS YOUR OPINION, IT IS JUST TO GET A UNDERSTANDING OF HOW OTHERS RATE THEIR DRIVERS ..
THE FINN GAVE HIS LIST , IT IS HIS OPINION NOT LAW !
12-21-2006, 04:54 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Your argument is moot and rediculous, senna did not need an unfair advantage to beat prost.
Prost himself admitted this in a interview in F1 magazine 5 yrs ago , that senna was better and faster than him and in hindsight his biggest msitake was not accepting that , to beat him PROST OWN WORDS , SO GWAY!
In case you and others likewise don't get it , it is a list in your own opinion , it is neither right or wrong IT IS WHAT YOUR TEN BEST IS NOTHING ELSE , IT IS YOUR OPINION, IT IS JUST TO GET A UNDERSTANDING OF HOW OTHERS RATE THEIR DRIVERS ..
THE FINN GAVE HIS LIST , IT IS HIS OPINION NOT LAW !
Prost himself admitted this in a interview in F1 magazine 5 yrs ago , that senna was better and faster than him and in hindsight his biggest msitake was not accepting that , to beat him PROST OWN WORDS , SO GWAY!
In case you and others likewise don't get it , it is a list in your own opinion , it is neither right or wrong IT IS WHAT YOUR TEN BEST IS NOTHING ELSE , IT IS YOUR OPINION, IT IS JUST TO GET A UNDERSTANDING OF HOW OTHERS RATE THEIR DRIVERS ..
THE FINN GAVE HIS LIST , IT IS HIS OPINION NOT LAW !
12-21-2006, 05:37 PM
#72
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Pole,
I already said hunt was there because of my error & meant Clark, besides as A. Wayne already said, it's my list and who I think are the best. I think Gilles is the best ever because whan I saw/see him drive, his car control and sheer talent to me looks superior. He wasn't the champion but most of the time he had crappy red brick as his car and then he was killed way too early. Same way Senna was robbed from us (F1 fans).
Nobody can say as a fact who is best, it's a moot point since so rarely we can compare two great drivers in same era in same car (Senna & Prost can make a very valid comparison but i.e. Fangio & Schumi not).
Don't get so worked up over this kind of list.
A. Wayne,
I understand. As I mentioned earlier, I have my reasons to concider him the best even though he never was WDC, I rank them by talent, the way I see them. That's why Schumi is not on my top 5 list even though he has the most championships.
Greg,
Who's in your "list" beside Moss?
I already said hunt was there because of my error & meant Clark, besides as A. Wayne already said, it's my list and who I think are the best. I think Gilles is the best ever because whan I saw/see him drive, his car control and sheer talent to me looks superior. He wasn't the champion but most of the time he had crappy red brick as his car and then he was killed way too early. Same way Senna was robbed from us (F1 fans).
Nobody can say as a fact who is best, it's a moot point since so rarely we can compare two great drivers in same era in same car (Senna & Prost can make a very valid comparison but i.e. Fangio & Schumi not).
Don't get so worked up over this kind of list.
A. Wayne,
I understand. As I mentioned earlier, I have my reasons to concider him the best even though he never was WDC, I rank them by talent, the way I see them. That's why Schumi is not on my top 5 list even though he has the most championships.
Greg,
Who's in your "list" beside Moss?
12-21-2006, 05:42 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by pole position
I respect your input when you post techical facts but IMO when it comes to F1 you are biased and very,very opinionated due to your ,don't get me wrong, South American background.
1. This is above your head,
2. You ran out of kool aid.
3. I'm not So. American.
4. i have finally figured out the position of where you have the pole.
5. Every statement i have made is factual and can be backed up .
6. My opinion is listed as my top ten .
7. can you name 10 f1 drivers , have you ever been to a f1 race.
8. You have now attacked everyone's opinion on their F1 driver picks and i'm opinionated.
9. You ARE not capable of understanding technical facts .
10. You started watching F1 , when you got your first tv 2 yrs ago so i can now understand the comments .
There ! MY NEW TOP 10 FOR THE POLE !
12-21-2006, 06:14 PM
#74
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Finn,
i understand , that why i stated that for me they have to have a W/C to make my list ...
Maybe if we say post your top 5/10 list based on the best F1 W/C. it would be less complicated for some ..
Then you can do a top 10 based on the best driver you have ever seen , with this criteria my top ten list is different but similar ...
The top ten drivers i have ever seen.Live.
1. Juan Montoya
2. Walter Rohl
3. Michael Schumacher.
4. Nigel Mansell
5. Oscar Laurrarui
6 .Hans stuck.
7. Emerson Fittipaldi
8. Mario andretti
9. Bob wolleck.
10. JJ Lehto
Man there is so many that qualify these are the guys who drives stick out ,of the top of my head. Hans stuck and walter scared the **** out of me at sebring years ago in the rain on slicks these guys wherethe only ones that did not have to stop for wets to see walter drift that Turbo porsche before they had red flagged the race was something you had to see. Oscar laurrarui Could hustle a 962 like it was a gt car , he was the best i have ever seen in a 962 closely folowed by stuck . On the tight street course's Oscar would pitch this ground effects car around like a toy .. He also had set the lap record at daytona before an accident from a blown rear tire destroyed the Brun 962..
Ohh, if you never saw Montoya in a Indy car , !!! then forget about it...
JJ , wht can i say in a sportscar WOW!
i understand , that why i stated that for me they have to have a W/C to make my list ...
Maybe if we say post your top 5/10 list based on the best F1 W/C. it would be less complicated for some ..
Then you can do a top 10 based on the best driver you have ever seen , with this criteria my top ten list is different but similar ...
The top ten drivers i have ever seen.Live.
1. Juan Montoya
2. Walter Rohl
3. Michael Schumacher.
4. Nigel Mansell
5. Oscar Laurrarui
6 .Hans stuck.
7. Emerson Fittipaldi
8. Mario andretti
9. Bob wolleck.
10. JJ Lehto
Man there is so many that qualify these are the guys who drives stick out ,of the top of my head. Hans stuck and walter scared the **** out of me at sebring years ago in the rain on slicks these guys wherethe only ones that did not have to stop for wets to see walter drift that Turbo porsche before they had red flagged the race was something you had to see. Oscar laurrarui Could hustle a 962 like it was a gt car , he was the best i have ever seen in a 962 closely folowed by stuck . On the tight street course's Oscar would pitch this ground effects car around like a toy .. He also had set the lap record at daytona before an accident from a blown rear tire destroyed the Brun 962..
Ohh, if you never saw Montoya in a Indy car , !!! then forget about it...
JJ , wht can i say in a sportscar WOW!
12-21-2006, 06:36 PM
#75
Originally Posted by Flying Finn
Greg,
Who's in your "list" beside Moss?
Who's in your "list" beside Moss?
And in my opinion, you put them all on a wet track and Ickx would be the man to beat
Or put them all in 917/30s, and Donohue will be the man... I guess it's hard to say, because there was a time when the Sportscars were as fast as the F1 cars, and arguably harder to drive.