Champ Car drivers are inferior to F1 drivers?
12-16-2006, 10:52 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
I think Bourdais is a very special kind of talent, which is why he is usually so far ahead of the Champ Car pack as well.
12-16-2006, 10:59 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by Bill L Seifert
There is absoultly no way to predict exactly how someone is going to do when they get to F1. Everyone thought Zarnadi was going to blow them away, but he didn't .
IMHO I think additude is the biggest predictor, and we can't see attitude. If a driver makes it to F1, and says "whew, I made it" and thinks he is on top, he probably won't do well. If he gets to the top, and thinks he is back on the bottome rung of the ladder, and works his butt off to suceed, he will probably be successful. I think that is what MS did. I think Jacques got to Williams, and the car was so good he could not fail, when he went to a lesser team, he didn't do as well.
Just my opinion.
Bill Seifert
1987 944S Race Car
IMHO I think additude is the biggest predictor, and we can't see attitude. If a driver makes it to F1, and says "whew, I made it" and thinks he is on top, he probably won't do well. If he gets to the top, and thinks he is back on the bottome rung of the ladder, and works his butt off to suceed, he will probably be successful. I think that is what MS did. I think Jacques got to Williams, and the car was so good he could not fail, when he went to a lesser team, he didn't do as well.
Just my opinion.
Bill Seifert
1987 944S Race Car
Totally disagree bill, anyone following F1 closely would have known zinardi's trip would have been for naught. but being european he had to take the chance. JV was a much better driver than alex ever was. again SB was a renault sponsered driver , he is french , if He was anygood he would be in F1 . AJ this year proved that in cart , he is at best average , just like Da Matta , who was slower than Panis who happened to be 10 yrs his senior. alll these guys are , where top cart drivers , unfortunately it is now lower than F3 , etc when looking for talent ..
Marco andretti , Graham rahal , have to make the trip to europe to step up , it will not happen here with the current open wheel racing environment.
12-16-2006, 11:04 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by Flying Finn
What were the set-ups? Duties (tyre test, old tyres, long runs etc.)?
Without those there's no point comparing. i.e. earlier this year Piguet jr. was faster than Kovalainen on same day but when you hear what they did (Kovalainen had same tyres the whole day while Piquet had fresh fast tyres) you got the confirmation what we know, Kovalainen is better.
Besides, if Scott (slow)Speed is who you're comparing...
This is not to say Bourdais is not fast, I think he could do well in F1 and if i were F1 boss, I'd much rather give him the car that to i.e. Scot Speed or any of the Japanese guys out there at the moment.
Without those there's no point comparing. i.e. earlier this year Piguet jr. was faster than Kovalainen on same day but when you hear what they did (Kovalainen had same tyres the whole day while Piquet had fresh fast tyres) you got the confirmation what we know, Kovalainen is better.
Besides, if Scott (slow)Speed is who you're comparing...
This is not to say Bourdais is not fast, I think he could do well in F1 and if i were F1 boss, I'd much rather give him the car that to i.e. Scot Speed or any of the Japanese guys out there at the moment.
I once remembered an ex W/C , that was much slower than his team mate , destroyed a lot of cars could not win a race to save his life ,( took more than 70 races to win his first ) but quite possible had a pic of Ron Dennis humping a donkey , so he was able to hold on to his job long enough to get on with it . Eventually won 2 W/C...
12-18-2006, 09:52 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
why would you think that scott Speed is slow and SB is Fast !
I once remembered an ex W/C , that was much slower than his team mate , destroyed a lot of cars could not win a race to save his life ,( took more than 70 races to win his first ) but quite possible had a pic of Ron Dennis humping a donkey , so he was able to hold on to his job long enough to get on with it . Eventually won 2 W/C...
I once remembered an ex W/C , that was much slower than his team mate , destroyed a lot of cars could not win a race to save his life ,( took more than 70 races to win his first ) but quite possible had a pic of Ron Dennis humping a donkey , so he was able to hold on to his job long enough to get on with it . Eventually won 2 W/C...
Hakkinen was slow in F1 and much slower than his team mate, right.
(may I remind you that in his first qualifying with McLaren he was faster than his then team mate, Ayrton Senna. I guess Senna was slow too?)
Here's one of Hakkinen's slow, non gutsy drives.
Last edited by Flying Finn; 12-18-2006 at 03:14 PM.
12-18-2006, 03:36 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
I once remembered an ex W/C , that was much slower than his team mate , destroyed a lot of cars could not win a race to save his life ,( took more than 70 races to win his first ) but quite possible had a pic of Ron Dennis humping a donkey , so he was able to hold on to his job long enough to get on with it . Eventually won 2 W/C...
Can't say anything against Hak here or you get roasted.
BTW, you forgot to mention that his first two wins were gifts.
That said, I'm sure I could losen his lug nuts and he'd still out drive me.
12-18-2006, 04:18 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
put'em all in a spec miata series and see.
mk
mk
Then you may have ended up with PT playing fender tag with MS
12-18-2006, 04:26 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by Geo
Heh. I knew you would get grilled for that.
Can't say anything against Hak here or you get roasted.
BTW, you forgot to mention that his first two wins were gifts.
That said, I'm sure I could losen his lug nuts and he'd still out drive me.
Can't say anything against Hak here or you get roasted.
BTW, you forgot to mention that his first two wins were gifts.
That said, I'm sure I could losen his lug nuts and he'd still out drive me.
Which team mate are we talkin about?
Hakkinen was much slower than Julian Bailey? Right...
Hakkinen was much slower than Johnny Herbert? Right...
Hakkinen was much slower than Ayrton Senna? He was slower than Senna but who wouldn't and like I mentioned ealier, he managed to beat him too.
Hakkinen was much slower than Phillippe Alliot? Right...
Hakkinen was much slower than Martin Brundle? Right...
Hakkinen was much slower than Nigel Mansell? Right...
Hakkinen was much slower than Mark Blundell? Right...
Hakkinen was much slower than David Coulthard? Right...
Pass the crack pipe please.
12-18-2006, 06:23 PM
#26
I think there is a longer list of Cart drivers that "failed" in F1 than F1 drivers that failed in Cart.
However, most F1 drivers that failed at Cart, really failed at INDY. Big wrecks (N Piquet comes to mind, Johnny Herbert didn't show much in his Cart years. S Johannsen was better at Cart than F1)).
Most Cart guys get filtered out very quickly in F1. DaMatta, Michael Andretti, Zanardi (his 2nd time in F1 was no better than the first), JV wins with the then technologically superior car for F1 and then seems to disappear. Montoya did well in both series but wan't able to win often enough in F1 for a championship.
It is a shame that there is no "one series" to really test the drivers. It doesn't help that the top guys are all bound by contracts limiting their racing "outside" their series. I liked the old days ('60-70s) when a guy might be racing dirt oval tracks one weekend and open wheel the next and sports cars the next. I appreciate the very versatile driver over the "one discipline" driver. Thats likely why I think rally drivers are really the best in the world
However, most F1 drivers that failed at Cart, really failed at INDY. Big wrecks (N Piquet comes to mind, Johnny Herbert didn't show much in his Cart years. S Johannsen was better at Cart than F1)).
Most Cart guys get filtered out very quickly in F1. DaMatta, Michael Andretti, Zanardi (his 2nd time in F1 was no better than the first), JV wins with the then technologically superior car for F1 and then seems to disappear. Montoya did well in both series but wan't able to win often enough in F1 for a championship.
It is a shame that there is no "one series" to really test the drivers. It doesn't help that the top guys are all bound by contracts limiting their racing "outside" their series. I liked the old days ('60-70s) when a guy might be racing dirt oval tracks one weekend and open wheel the next and sports cars the next. I appreciate the very versatile driver over the "one discipline" driver. Thats likely why I think rally drivers are really the best in the world
12-18-2006, 07:05 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by racer
It is a shame that there is no "one series" to really test the drivers.
SeaBass said it would be to much of a challange, or something along those lines.
12-18-2006, 09:22 PM
#29
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I think that the top drivers in Champ Car would do fine in F1. Bourdais proved that he can be fast in an F1 car, put him in a Renault or a McLaren instead of the STR car and he would've been at the top of the time sheets. With the introduction of the DP01, which has a lot of similarities to a modern F1 car we will see the transition from Champ Car to F1 easier.
wilson and Bourdais have both matured since they have came from F1 to Champ Car and given a second chance they would do really well. There is a lot of young talent in Champ Car these days and if i had to guess I would say that we will see some of them in F1 in the near future!
wilson and Bourdais have both matured since they have came from F1 to Champ Car and given a second chance they would do really well. There is a lot of young talent in Champ Car these days and if i had to guess I would say that we will see some of them in F1 in the near future!
12-18-2006, 09:25 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by racer
I think there is a longer list of Cart drivers that "failed" in F1 than F1 drivers that failed in Cart.
Originally Posted by racer
I liked the old days ('60-70s) when a guy might be racing dirt oval tracks one weekend and open wheel the next and sports cars the next.