993inNC

I'm glad someone else here has a clue what it is I am talking about.......I hate to feel like the odd man out
In front drive cars, when done incorrectly the motor stops.....BAD. I have not, to my knowledge experience the E-brake thing, but when I do the dance wrong, it just upsets the car and my cornering execution up quite badly

I am usually #54 and in the car in the sig. below, hope to see you at VIR sometime, come say Hi

993inNC

If done wrong and you take forever to let out, yes. Like I said this all happens (supposed to anyway) very quickly almost like heel/toe.

JustinL

Essentially that's how I see it. Rev matching with one part of the foot while the other part is braking.

Larry Herman

With your last explanation, I understand exactly what you are doing. I have to say that I find problems with that technique in a rear engined car, and cannot help but feel that you have to be going slower at the transition point in order for this to work. In all fairness though, I think that I would need to ride with you to see for myself. I am going to try and make the Zone 2 VIR event in March. Maybe you will be there too.

993inNC

Well, but you have to keep in mind Larry that I'm a 4S, everything is spinning. You really do have to experience to understand it. And yes maybe it can be slower, but it is so SOOOTH when right, its worth it

JC in NY

First, I think it's impossible to properly execute high performance driving without knowing how to heel-toe downshift in at least one of its variants.

That said, I never try to teach it to a new student on the track. It's not possible! It takes a lot of practice to get it right, and a tremendous amount of repitition. Your time as an instructor is better spent on other topics. I always teach my students the proper technique, and charge them to study and practice it and get it right for next time. But we don't do it during the 20 minute session unless the student shows extraordinary conpetence right away.

Larry Herman

Fair enough. The inherent understeer in your C4S may require you to do subtle things to get it to turn-in that would give up significant speed in a rear wheel drive car.

Z-man

Chris - will you be at VIR in October 2007 with NNJR? Perhaps we can share rides then.

Thanks for the explanation of your technique. I feel heel-toe would set someone up for the corner with a more balanced car than your technique - since the downshift is done further up in the braking zone, the car has more time to get settled if the downshift isn't ideal. With your technique, you're saving the engagement of the clutch to the last second. If something goes wrong at that point, you have less of a buffer to work with, AWD and all.

-Z-man.

Bull

Are you saying that NNJR is moving to October for VIR in '07?????

Z-man

I heard rumors to that effect, but they may have been talking of another track altogether. VIR for NNJR may be just earlier in November. As soon as dates are confirmed, I can post them up here.

-Z

Techno Duck

I taught myself to heel toe on the street probably 6 months after i learned to drive stick. I used to watch many videos of Keiichi Tsuchiya (the Drift King) bombing back roads and loved the footwork..naturally i had to learn it! Its easiest to do it from 5th to 4th as i feel its more natural, 4th to 3rd is not bad either, 3rd to 2nd took me a long time to get right, mainly figuring out how much 'blip' i needed to get the RPM's at the right level.

I never had much luck rolling my ankle and hitting the gas with my heel. I was watching a Tiff Needell video where he was driving a 996 Turbo (or maybe it was a GT3) and they cut to a shot of his feet as he heel toe'ed.. he used the left portion of his toes on the edge of the brake pedal with the right side of his toes on the gas pedal. This method works especially well with cars that have a floor mounted accelerator pedal i think. I also use this method on my friends Japanese cars that have the pedal hanging from under the dash (like most non-euro cars). Rolling my ankle has never felt natural to me.

Based on reading this thread though, im beggining to wonder if what i am doing is actually the heel-toe idea.

Entering a turn i will start braking
Shift into neutral and release clutch
Blip the gas with the other side of my foot while still braking
Shift back into my desired lower gear
and depending on the turn continue to brake or release the brake at the same time i release the clutch pedal to go back into gear
then obviously turn .

Larry Herman

The basic point of any of this is to have the drivetrain re-engaged before you get off of the brakes. That way the power is there immediately, not a second later. It really does make a big difference at 10/10ths.

VaSteve

How much pressue is required on the throttle? Sometimes, especially on the street, I find that I'm a little early on the gas and some of the revs die off before the clutch is re-engaged. Especially prevalent in my SC (which has the decel valve disconnected ...by PO).

I see the modded out track cars shoot fire on the track, but I'm not certain they are stomping it to the floor, more that they have a rich mix.

cooleyjb

Yes it is. Your brake force is dependant upon the traction of the tires and if you are on the track your brakes better be able to overcome the traction of the tires. Are you implying that the engine can be helping you slow down here??

Alan Herod

Techno Duck -- I think I see what you are saying, but you should begin braking at the start of your braking zone, not when entering a turn. I think you meant to say that. If you release the clutch with the shift lever in neutral and then push it back in to select the lower gear, that is double clutching (or double de-clutching). Don't need to let the clutch out in neutral. Sometimes it does help going into the next lower gear.

VaSteve, if you notice, I modded the accelerator pedal to make it easier to heel-toe the SC. Make some big super foot thing and mount it to your accelerator pedal and you can do it with your heel or by rolling your foot. The point is the blip is as you are moving the shift lever into the gear and even with a lightened clutch the revs don't have a chance to die. You will have to determine when exactly, as your throttle response may not be the same as mine which may not be the same as Larry's.