SundayDriver

Ding, Ding. Yes, with aero you can set the car up loose mechanically then tune the aero (as in more rear downforce) to move to understeer at higher speeds. For me, unless a car has a very big push, I drive the rear tires. With lots of understeer, driving the rear tires simply makes you push the fronts even more until they are toast.

SundayDriver

The inherent advantage of oversteer is that when you enter that mode (slightly) you can correct with throttle with negates the scrubbed speed. Now with extreme oversteer, you usually have to come off throttle which costs time. But with slight overstreer, you are pretty much forced to get on the power early to control the car.

With understeer, you must lift to regain front traction which is going to slow you down. The fast FWD racers often run insane rear tire pressures (80+ cold) to make the car loose.

Larry Herman

I think that a major point is being overlooked here - drifting the car through the turn. If you can produce rotational inertia on turn-in, it will cause the car to continue to rotate and produce a nice mild drift on corner exit. A car that oversteers will do this automatically. A car that has mild understeer can be coaxed to do this, will feel quite stable and will be very quick. A car that has pronounced understeer, and I suspect that a majority of DE cars do, will either grind its way towards trackout, or will need some sort of help (read throttle lift) at the apex to get them pointed towards trackout so that the driver can get back into the throttle. And that my friends is slow. If you need to get out of the throttle once you have gone to it, you are losing speed to the driver who can stay in it.

Veloce Raptor

Yeah....what Larry said...

TD in DC

I have been following this topic for a long time here in this forum (it seems to pop up about once every 1.5 months).

From the discussions, it seems to me that both extreme understeer and extreme oversteer are problems because they will cause drivers to engage in techniques to control the car that ultimately result in slower lap times.

With respect to whether mild understeer or mild oversteer is faster, it most likely depends upon the individual driver, because both can be manipulated and thus the fastest setup ultimately depends upon what makes that driver more comfortable/confident.

In other words, so long as you are somewhat close to neutral, there is no universal answer for every driver . . . right?

Mike Murphy

So, to answer your question: neutral steer is preferred!

Larry Herman

Like everything else in life, it is a compromise. Cars that will understeer at slow speeds may oversteer at high speeds. It is the inherant dynamic of loading, handling and aerodynamics. So for most of us mortals, the question is where we want that balance. I personally do not like my car to plow like a pig, so I tend towards neutral and deal with the increasing tendancy towards oversteer at higher speeds. When you talk about aero cars (like SundayDrivers) you can mitigate that oversteer with the wing, so you can actually have a car that oversteers at slow speeds and understeers at high speeds.

fatbillybob

SD,

Thank you...I think I'm beginning to understand this stuff.

Geo

I'm a little late to this party, but what the heck...

I used to have very firm thoughts on this point. Now I only think I know what I like. I say "think" because I'm quite certain I don't get the most out of every car I drive, despite being at least reasonably competent.

My standard answer is, "God only knows."

I say this because I've read too many accounts of equally fast (within thousandths) teammates in F1 where one temmate likes oversteer and the other likes understeer. Go figure.

At best I know what I think I like.... for now. Meantime, I am trying to keep an open mind on this subject.

I suggest you work towards what you think you like, but learn to work the car with whatever set-up you have as Mark has at least alluded to. I have a very good friend who I got into karting. He came in during a practice session (too short to make changes and get back out) and declared his kart undriveable. I told him to NEVER do that again. He wasted an excellent opportunity. My point being that you never know what you might end up with during a race or qualifying session. Unless the car is truly danagerous, learn to work it.

That said, when you're working your set-up you need to drive as consistently as possible so you can really evaluate the changes to the car. But once you're stuck with something that doesn't work as you like, if you don't have opportunity to change it, learn to work it.

So... what's faster or better? I'd say if F1 teammates don't necessarily agree, far be it from me to say.

Mike Murphy

George, that's a great point. If you took 30 identical cars, each one would still behave differently from the others.

Larry Herman

I have found that the secret is to setup and drive the car they way that gives you the most comfort. That way you can drive the car as fast as you can make it go.
If that is truly fast, then that's great, and if it's not so fast, well that's life.

Bill935K3

What the real pros say, both Randy Pobst and Mike Livtics (sp) like a car shaded to understeer.
The below lap has good turn in (very little trail brake for a 935) but understeer coming off the corners, that is absoute confidence that power will hook up and with proper smooth application car will still go where you want it.
After 15 laps front tires fell off BADLY (almost 2 sec) due to working them too hard sooo the car had too much understeer in reality.
http://members.rennlist.com/bill935k3/WGqual20052A.wmv
Now there is a Lea Keen video around showing him kicking my *** lap time wise with a lot less horsepower but better grip-speed in the corners. From viewing it I would say 1 he had better neutral balance 2 you will also notice he has the tallent to keep a great car really on the limit.

Veloce Raptor

Very nice lap, Bill. But yeah, I can see where your front tires would overheat after a while, though. Remember alsao that the pros set up the car one way for qualifying (only a couple of laps, light on fuel, tires optimal for only 2 laps or so), and another way for the race (accommodating the weight transfer that comes from a more full fuel tank gradually emptying, tires heating up & going away--which is also affected by the fuel burn off, driver style, etc).

BostonDMD

Bill that's some lap!
What are the chances you will instruct me for one day at next year DE event?
You can event take my Cayman S for a spin..

ScottMellor

Mark WroteMark could you clarify this a little for me? If you are in a fast corner in a powerful non aero car like the TT, and it starts to oversteer, if you feather the throttle won't that cause weight transfer to the front and exacerbate the situation? Conversely, if you are starting to oversteer and ADD throttle won't it also cause power-on oversteer. Is the answer that you add a little gas and transfer a little weight to the back and regain your control?