My relatively new Pagid orange brake pads (6-track days) are giving me some problems. They seem to be causing my steering wheel and the front wheels to shake violently especially under heavy braking (ie, at turn 1 & 5 at Summit Point).

I first used them at VIR (for 3-day DE event) and did not notice any shaking then. Last two weekends at Summit, the shaking has gotten considerably more noticeable to the point where it's making it harder to control the car at turn-ins.

Could it be from the colder temperature and pads not warming up enough? Last weekend at Summit was in the 40s but the weekend before at Summit was in the mid 60s. I checked the rotors and they seems to be straight.

The funny thing is there is no shake at all on the regular streets or on the first lap..then all hell breaks loose. I was out on the track for a close to 30min session last weekend, and the shake was there until the end. Any ideas?

Have you checked the torque and tightening sequence on the rotor lugs?

Checked the wheel bearings?

Torque on the lugs, yes. Wheel bearings, yes before VIR in Sept

Probably a combination of deposits on the pads + cold temperature judders.

Have you used a different brand of pads with your current rotors? Pagids are known to disagree with other pad material. I used to run Pagid's on my 86 911 DE car. I had the same problem. I finally solved it by using one pair of rotors and pads for the street and another for the track. Can be a pain in the *** but it worked.

Don

You've got the wrong pads. RS4-4 Oranges are old technology, and are prone to material transfer, especially when used on small brakes like the ones on your Carrera. What you are feeling is a result of uneven material transfer and the resultant grab/release pulsing that occurs when they get hot.

This is a subject that has been reviewed countless times. Your options for Pagid pads are either the RS-14 Blacks or most people's favorite, the RS-19 Yellows. The RS-29 Yellow is their newest endurance racing pad, and seem to be as good as the RS-19s, with a little higher friction values.

Michael,

I had the exact same problem last weekend at Sebring. I am using PFC 97's They worked fine until near the end of 1/2 hour session and then the front end began to shake when the brakes were applied. On the cool down lap the problem went away. During the next session the brakes were fine until almost the end of that session. Again, on the cool down lap the problem went away. The temps for the weekend were in the mid to high 60's. I plan on calling PFC for their input after I get a chance to check the lugs and roters. I just replaced the pads a few weeks before the DE and put about 300 miles on the car before the event. Maybe I did not bed them in enough...

Dan.

Veloce, Don, and Larry all chimed in as I was typing.

Interesting, I had Pagid Blue's on the car when I bought it in June, and replaced them with the PFC 97's If it's a case of the old Pagid Blue residue not letting the PFC's do their job, what is the solution?

This is an interesting thread to me for one reason. I'm certain that there are alot of drivers that have problems with brake pad transfer because of switching pads on the same rotors but I maintain that the vast majority of drivers have brake issues because they were never taught proper brake management.

Most entry level drivers complain that their brakes are not up to the task. While there may be mechanincal reasons for that, most of the time, it is because they overheated the system.

I work very hard on brake management and have learned many things about preserving my brakes.

Here are some problems I see with the drivers I've instructed:
-Brake progressively harder as they progress through the brake zone.
-Brake too early then let off and re-brake later in the brake zone.

If you fall into either of these catagories, you risk overheating your brake system.

I just spoke with Phil at PFC and it appears that I did not bed in my 97's properly. however it does not seem that the fix is difficult. He suggested that I simply clean the rotors with a scotchbrite pad and follow up with some brake kleen and then re-bed the pads properly. It would be interesting to see what Pagid has to say.

Mitch,
I could be guilty of what you suggest to a degree. My car has an air duct system on the fronts. It was hard to get a consistent lap due to the traffic, and as a result I felt like I was giving the brakes a chance to cool, however I might have negated that theory by applying them improperly as you suggested.

Dan.

Thanks guys for all the input! I used Porsche OEM pads before the Pagid, so I’m guessing the shaking problem is not the result of the different pad materials disagreeing.

Like Dan, I do admit, I am guilty of what Mitch has suggested to a degree. But the shaking starts at lap two as soon as I start braking harder. At this point, even if I tried, I don’t see how I can overheat the brake system after one lap under yellow flag.

The more I think about, the more I think that it’s probably a result of uneven material transfer. I chose Pagid orange because it’s supposed to be easier on the rotors, and a lot of my PCA friends are using the same pads. I will look into getting Pagid blacks or yellows if I cannot correct the problem by cleaning the rotors and bedding the pads one more time.

I've had the exact same thing happento me.

I had heard that Pagids were somewhat notorious about pad transfer so over the winter I'm changing the front rotors and going to try PFC 97's to see if they are any better although Michael had a similar experience with the 97's. The car is track only and never driven with any other pad/rotor combination.

I think we can probably all learn from what Mitch said about brake management as I know I have been guilty of that.

On that same vein, I was told to brake "with authority" meaning to brake as hard as possible w/o the ABS kicking in. Is this wrong??

You either have pad transfer or warped rotors. Either are probably a result of what Mitch was alluding too. I should know.....

I would be willing to bet it's pad transfer since Pagid's are especially susceptible to this if not properly bedded.

You can do either of the following:

1) Take the rotors to a good wrench and have the rotors turned. If it's pad transfer, the turn should not be invasive at all, maybe 1/20,000th. I've hadthis done to slotted rotors and it's taken the pad material off and not even gotten into the slots.

2) Switch pads and go to a Hawk (blue probably) pad. People have had good luck with the Hawk's scrubbing previous pad transfer off of the rotors.

If the rotors are warped (and NEW), you can try to have them turned and see how bad the warpinig is. If minor, turning should fix. If major, start over with new rotors and pads and read up on proper bedding/heat cycling.

Hey;

I'm willing to bet that it is the Pagid pads themselves, and that it is improper or uneven resin transfer. This could be from either improper bedding, or poor brake usage. I'd bet the former, mostly.

There must be a lot of people with more money than me. I can't afford Pagids. I've used Porterfield, Performance Friction, and Hawk. I've never had the problems you describe. PFC-97 are an excellent pad, and not difficult to bed. Hawk Blue/Black the same.

I would not do more than just skim the rotors if you try turning them. A couple 10ths is all you can afford. You need the material thickness for the heat sink properties. Mostly this will be to see if they are indeed warped. Mostly, "warpage" is simply improper resin transfer from poor bedding.

My first DE event (entire 3 days at VIR) after switching to Pagid orange went smoothly without any problem. Then on the following DE event at Summit Point, the steering wheel started shaking under braking. If improper bedding was the cause, wouldn't I have had the problem at VIR? The only thing I can think of is after VIR, my car was sitting in the outside parking lot at a shop for one week while she waited for a windshield glass replacement and VSS replacement. During that time, I remembered it rained a lot. Could that have caused the bedding problem? ... or am I being totally ridiculous.

Hey John, I would be happy to try something else that yields the same results with less money.