Howdy all...hope everyone has been well

I spun out a couple weeks ago at my 2nd DE...wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but not fun either...

Happened on my first run on second day after warm up lap and I spun entering turn 1 at MSR-HOUSTON. I dont know what caused it, nor could my instructor determine what happened. He thought track was maybe still slick from rain early in morn. He also thought my entry speed and line were consistent with previous day runs...

My thought is I may have lifted...it happened so quick...I did try to counter-steer but car swung back around so quick it surprised me...it was then I thought best to go for a "little ride"...maybe I could have tried to get on gas to straigthen, but who knows?...I did manage to clutch-in and brake but only when started to go off-pavement...when came to stop motor was off....I felt more embarrassed than scared...I started car and drove to Black flag pit and then finished run at a reduced speed. My instructor was glad I was able to finish and I did not get shook up.....He had me do my check ride on next run, now that was some pressure....

Now a couple newbie questions...pls be gentle

1) Going into a turn how does one judge proper speed at turn-in so as not to be too fast ?? I now find myself carrying more speed into the turns and realize I am glancing quickly at speedo while downshifting/ braking to guage speed (I do look thru turn )

2) Shifting...I seem to be upshifting a bit early... what is proper technique ??always at redline?? my one instructor was content in my shifting and the other was telling me to let rev's climb...not something one regularly does on the street daily, so is new to me.

3) Previous onwer gave me his Hot Laps timer. Seems like it would be a good tool...is it commonly used at DE's ?? since I have it should I use it ??

Thanks in advance for the advice
Bill

 

Bill,
we all go off, its the special people that go off twice in a weekend.. in a friends car So dont feel too bad


As for your questions:
1) thats a good one, and I hope this does not make me look stupid, use the warm up lap to get a "base line" run thought the corners. From there just increase the speed little by little, and before you know it you'll be taking some corners at speeds you had no idea you could go

2) Depends on the car. My sti makes NO power over 5,500 and revs to 7k. I set my light to 5,500 and shift there (or as close to it as possible). The 944 however I've heard makes a lot of power at 5,000-5,500. So i rev almost to 6 and shift (6,250 is the redline IIRC). It also depends on the corners, I'll short shift in some corners so i can use more of the gear later, rather than trying to shift in a corner. So really, it just depends

3) I would honestly advise you to either keep that thing locked up for a while or sell it. This is only your second DE, you have SO MUCH to learn, and you should not bother with laptimes.

thats my .02, but i would trust the more seasoned people here. They all have great advice.
-Ross

 

you can use the hotlap but since it's only your 2nd de it'll be more distracting than helpful... you'll be staring at it just to see +/- 2 second differentials only to find out that by doing 8 more weekends you can chop off 10 seconds from whatever number the display is showing

now for the serious stuff...

1) entry speed into corners is mostly by feel... and awareness of what gear you're in. i don't view a corner as a "50 mph corner" but rather a "3rd gear corner". there's a reason racecars don't even bother w/ speedos... once you know what gear the corner is, then you next determine is it a mid rpm corner, high rpm? etc etc.

if you don't have to shift for a particular corner then you know you're "close" to your speed and just light braking will get you up to speed. if you do shift from 4th to 3rd then you should start getting a feel for where in the 3rd gear rpm range you'd like to be...


2) upshifting between turns depends on what comes up next after the shift... a loooong bend?- might wanna go up a gear earlier so you don't disturb the car's smooth composure through the bend... a straightway?- rev it up to the moon!

i'm sure i'm not exactly phrasing things properly but others will 'translate' it further

 

1) That is the biggest question in driving. The only way to judge that is experience. Best to start off slower than needed and slowly ramp up. Feel what the car does as you progress up. Do this each session because things can change.

2)Depends on how hard you want to push. I shift a 6000 RPM all the time. Habit for making speed. I don't like reving past that

3)Some folks use them and like them. Some orgs frown on them for insurance reasons.

 

For question #1: Keep your head up, eyes through the turn, don't look at the braking zone, look into the corner, and through the apex to the track-out. This allows your brain to calculate your speed and make decisions better. It takes practice.

 

absolutely correct!

i used to make a mistake at a new-to-me track by looking FOR turn in markers... they stopped being important when i started looking waaaaay up ahead THROUGH the turn.... your body/brain somehow just *knew* when is the right time to turn in, as well as what speed was acceptable for that particular turn in. very good point.

 

As the saying goes, "If you spin enough you'll eventually hit the apex."

I love that one.

 

For your second DE, I suggest you forget about entry speed and focus only on the line and your exit speed. Enter at a comfortable speed and get on the power earlier and earlier until you start to run out of track at exit. With more experience, the entry speed will climb somewhat, but you should not be focusing on that at this time.

When you focus on exit speed, you have a lot of safety margin in the first half of the corner. You can recover from going a bit too fast. When you maximize entry speed, you are on the edge the entire time. You make a little mistake and you are probably going off. Also, I suggest you adjust your lines to a slightly late apex - that gives you more room for error. As you build exit speed, then move the apex back to the correct spot.

One final comment, you said:
"He also thought my entry speed and line were consistent with previous day runs..."
Well, that is waaaaay too fast for the first run of the second day. You had a cold track, cold tires and cold driver. You need to bring it way down for the first session of the second day until you have a lot more experience. That is when most incidents happen.

 

Sunday's got it right. Exit speed is 90% of the deal. Key to exit speed is getting the car set and getting on the gas earlier.

Pushing the limit on entry speed is a 90% risk for a 10% gain... there is little time to be gained, but a tiny mistake can be very costly... screwing up the turn, or putting you off the track.

Frankly, give yourself a bit of safety margin on entry speed... in the long-run, that will pay off in consistently fast lap times.

 

One final comment, you said:
"He also thought my entry speed and line were consistent with previous day runs..."
Well, that is waaaaay too fast for the first run of the second day. You had a cold track, cold tires and cold driver. You need to bring it way down for the first session of the second day until you have a lot more experience. That is when most incidents happen.[/QUOTE]

+1. Most incidents happen on the 2nd day. In addition to the cold track, cold tires and cold driver, you may have an over confident driver based on the previous day. Finally, you have a green track (rubber being washed off by the previous nights rain).

 

Everyone has given you good advice.

It is great that you take your off seriously.

I would consider getting video if I were you. It might help you go back and see things that you failed to perceive at the moment. If you don't know why you spun, it is hard to learn anything specific from it.

Now, just don't beat yourself up about it.

 

This is the smartest thread I've read on Rlist. Kgorman totally has it right. Every new de driver needs to learn and practice the skill of looking ahead. We need to avoid looking at the big numbers in the brake zone, or at the brake or turn in cones and instead turn our eyes and focus through the turn into the track out.

I recently took the evo ax school (no relations) and they darn near ignored the skills of braking and turning and spent two days concentrating on when and where and how to look down the course, way past the hood of the car. They describe the skill as having a plan for where to look and say that the effect is to lengthen the time that we're on the gas

At my next track event, I found that by looking farther ahead, I had more confidence in my car, and I somehow just knew that I could brake less by focusing on the turn instead of the brake. At Pocono north, in the easy right turn out of the nascar track into the infield, I consistently picked up 10 mph by focusing on the track out as soon as I could see it, before I entered the brake zone. Obviously my prior skill set, where I focused more on how to brake and when to turn in, left alot of speed on the table.

So to answer the question at hand, you don't need to plan how fast to enter a turn. Your brain and feet will know how fast is fast if you practice looking through the turn.

Oh, and don't push yourself on the first hot lap in the morning. Even if the track is hot, you're brain isn't. Learn from your harmless spin that starting slowly isn't wimpy. It's plain smart.

Bravo on the great advice to our novice friend!

 

This falls into the "no substitute for experience" bucket for me. With more seat time under your belt, you will start to develop a better feel for how the chassis is reacting to the track and an almost instinctive reaction to a loss of control. You'll learn to recognize know when you're reaching your car's limit before it gets there.

Don't take this the wrong way (I'm sure someone will), but you need to learn to spin. What it feels like as it starts, how soon/how much steering input is needed to correct, how much throttle to settle the chassis, etc. Reading about it here is no substitute for feeling a spin and learning to react without thinking about it. My first spin (intentional, on a skidpad) I "knew" what to do but in reality did absolutely nothing. I was along for the ride.

Look for a car-control clinic -- a safe place to spin and learn CPR (correct, pause, recover). If you have the means, I recommend BMW's M-School. You are guaranteed a lot of good instruction, plenty of skid pad time on circles, ovals, and figure-8s, an autocross with dry-wet-dry transitions on multiple pavement surfaces, and a full-wet autocross course. All with the stability systems off. IMHO, it is far better than PDE for learning car control (PDE gave less than 5 min on the 'pad and nowhere else can you turn off the PSM).

As to shifting, do what feels comfortable to you. This is a DE, not a race and a few RPM here or there is not all that important right now. I short-shift before a turn sometimes just to remove another variable and simplify the turn so I can focus on the line.

On the timer, I'd put it away for now, too. Fast times come with consistency. If you want some gear in your car, I'd recommend a good video camera and frame the image so you can see your hands. You'll be able to hear from the audio what your throttle is doing and if the quality is good enough, see from your tac how well you are executing your shifts. Plus if you really care, you can see from the video how fast your laps are anyway.

 

there's a way of "feeling out" for grip when you're not sure how fast you entered the corner by way of getting off the brakes sooner and getting on the gas (momentarily) waaay before the apex but after turn-in... if your car is washing out, quickly back off, you're going too fast, and continue on 'normally'. if it sticks then you know you can stay on the gas all the way through.... don't think you'll be ready to apply this anytime soon though, but it will become useful eventually

 

This is a very good thread.

Bill/boze_man: it is very easy to spin in T1 there. Many have done so. The sequence of braking early, releasing the brakes & allowing the chassis to settle, getting back on power, and then turning in have to be very precise, or else you will be asking more than the car can deliver, given its attitude & where the CG is balanced. It is also a less-grippy corner compared with some others there.

That said, many, MANY folks want to brake there at the last possible moment, and then turn in while the car is standing on its nose. In addition, many, MANY people do not bring the car all the way to the right after the end of the pit wall before turn in, in order to widen the radius of the corner to give themn more stability and a better launch into the big sweeper that follows. Two things to consider for next time.

I strongly believe that it is way too early for you to be using a lap timer. Get up to Yellow, maybe, and then start thinking about it. Until then, focus on technique, balance, and consistency of line more than lap times.

Kudos to you for wanting to learn all you can from spinning there.