What is PCA Driver Ed all about?
09-24-2006, 09:19 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
What is PCA Driver Ed all about?
After my second year of Porsche DE I am a little confused on what exactly the PCA Instructors is trying to teach?
Is it about becoming a wheel to wheel road racer or is it about actually being a better daily driver, having some fun with our Porsches in a completely controlled and sensible manner?
What is the goal for Driver Ed as far as PCA and there instructors go?
I would think that PCA teaches or expects a standard for there instructors?
What does it take to be a nationally certified Instructor for the PCA?
Is it about becoming a wheel to wheel road racer or is it about actually being a better daily driver, having some fun with our Porsches in a completely controlled and sensible manner?
What is the goal for Driver Ed as far as PCA and there instructors go?
I would think that PCA teaches or expects a standard for there instructors?
What does it take to be a nationally certified Instructor for the PCA?
09-24-2006, 09:34 PM
#2
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Originally Posted by Z06
Is it about becoming a wheel to wheel road racer or is it about actually being a better daily driver, having some fun with our Porsches in a completely controlled and sensible manner?
Speaking only for myself, I teach the latter. Also, PCA insurance mandates that we not teach any sort of racing or racing technique, so we don't.
What is the reason for your question?
09-24-2006, 10:01 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
Speaking only for myself, I teach the latter. Also, PCA insurance mandates that we not teach any sort of racing or racing technique, so we don't.
What is the reason for your question?
What is the reason for your question?
It just seems that some of the instructors are looking to set track records when at DE and that includes when they are driving there students cars, it just seems a little reckless.
Why do some want to teach what the car can do at 10/10 tenths.
09-24-2006, 10:32 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Sounds like you got into something with a bad instructor, or you misunderstood a good one. Not judging, just trying to see what the question is about so appropriate answers can be given.
I'm a student of DE for the last 4 years. OK, a track **** might be more appropriate
, but I've had insrtuctors galore of all shapes, sizes and expertise, most of them at PCA sponsored events. Not one, and I emphasize, NONE, have asked to drive my car, and NONE have asked/told me to drive at 10/10ths. Safety has always been paramount. I may have FELT that I was driving at 10/10ths at some points, but subsequent outings and lessons have demonstrated that I was nowhere near 7/10ths at that time. Now, at my current stage of driving development, an instructor who is comfortable with me and my car may ask that we experiment with some different techniques to see if it is better for my drivng preference, my car, or the track. But, any changes are ALWAYS with baby steps, so that that any consequent WOOHOOS are easily catchable and salvageable.
DE is about car control at speed. Pretty much everything you need to learn in DE can be learned with you all alone in the track with your instructor. Since that is impractical, DE rules are created to allow the faster car/driver to pass the slower car/driver safely. If there is a car behind you, that means they are faster. You signal when you are ready to let them pass, you slow down as they pass, you give them room at the upcoming corner. It is not race passing. It is passing safely. Even in the advanced group. DE is not racing, and it shouldn't be.
Anyway, that is me, a professional student's viewpoint.
I'm a student of DE for the last 4 years. OK, a track **** might be more appropriate
, but I've had insrtuctors galore of all shapes, sizes and expertise, most of them at PCA sponsored events. Not one, and I emphasize, NONE, have asked to drive my car, and NONE have asked/told me to drive at 10/10ths. Safety has always been paramount. I may have FELT that I was driving at 10/10ths at some points, but subsequent outings and lessons have demonstrated that I was nowhere near 7/10ths at that time. Now, at my current stage of driving development, an instructor who is comfortable with me and my car may ask that we experiment with some different techniques to see if it is better for my drivng preference, my car, or the track. But, any changes are ALWAYS with baby steps, so that that any consequent WOOHOOS are easily catchable and salvageable.DE is about car control at speed. Pretty much everything you need to learn in DE can be learned with you all alone in the track with your instructor. Since that is impractical, DE rules are created to allow the faster car/driver to pass the slower car/driver safely. If there is a car behind you, that means they are faster. You signal when you are ready to let them pass, you slow down as they pass, you give them room at the upcoming corner. It is not race passing. It is passing safely. Even in the advanced group. DE is not racing, and it shouldn't be.
Anyway, that is me, a professional student's viewpoint.
09-25-2006, 10:20 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Z06
When you say racing technique..do you mean passing?
It just seems that some of the instructors are looking to set track records when at DE and that includes when they are driving there students cars, it just seems a little reckless.
Why do some want to teach what the car can do at 10/10 tenths.
It just seems that some of the instructors are looking to set track records when at DE and that includes when they are driving there students cars, it just seems a little reckless.
Why do some want to teach what the car can do at 10/10 tenths.
I cannot answer that, as I have never seen any instructor drive a student's car at anywhere near 10/10ths.
IMO, it is one of two things: Either you personally experienced the rare bad PCA instructor, of which there seem to be mercifully few, or you mistook 5/10ths for 10/10ths. A lot of first time DE students are astounded when someone with skills takes them out in their cars. Most mistake the way an instructor would drive their car, with plenty left in reserve, with 10/10ths. I know I did when I was a first-time-ever Green student.
09-25-2006, 10:27 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by Z06
After my second year of Porsche DE I am a little confused on what exactly the PCA Instructors is trying to teach?
Is it about becoming a wheel to wheel road racer or is it about actually being a better daily driver, having some fun with our Porsches in a completely controlled and sensible manner?
What is the goal for Driver Ed as far as PCA and there instructors go?
I would think that PCA teaches or expects a standard for there instructors?
What does it take to be a nationally certified Instructor for the PCA?
Is it about becoming a wheel to wheel road racer or is it about actually being a better daily driver, having some fun with our Porsches in a completely controlled and sensible manner?
What is the goal for Driver Ed as far as PCA and there instructors go?
I would think that PCA teaches or expects a standard for there instructors?
What does it take to be a nationally certified Instructor for the PCA?
The mission and purpose of the Driver Education Program is to provide a safe, structured and controlled teaching and learning environment. The PCA DE Program is designed so the participant can improve his or her driving abilities and acquire a better understanding of vehicle dynamics and driving safety at various tracks around the country.
One giant word of caution: this adventure can become very addictive.. We will teach you to drive your Porsche the way Stuttgart designed it to be driven. The DE schools are run in a safe and controlled environment on a closed course. Like any new sport your instructor will guide you into this exciting world of high performance driving. These weekends are great sources of stories for the Monday morning coffee break. You will have dreams about various turns and wake up with memories of your instructor yelling BRRRAKE or DON'T LIFT. These schools are truly the only safe way to learn the engineering dynamics that went into the development of this famous racing marque.
However, it is noted that PCA DE events are not racing, nor preparation for racing. No times or placings are recorded, and no awards or prizes are received by the participants of PCA Driver's Education events; just a lot of fun and camaraderie. Any conduct considered by the Porsche Club of America to be either unsafe or inconsistent with the spirit or purpose of the Driver's Education Program will not be permitted. This approach keeps the events safe for all participants!
09-25-2006, 10:37 AM
#7
I have always viewed PCA DEs as being primarily about having fun, both on the track and in the paddock.
In order to have fun, you have to not get hurt and bring your car home in one piece. Apart from these prerequisites, though, each person's definition of fun can be entirely different.
Some people try to drive as well and as fast as they can (I lean towards this end), while others are content with taking their car out for a sunday drive.
In light of the different definitions of "fun," there have to be a few ground rules designed to ensure that nobody gets hurt and that everybody takes their cars home in one piece.
These rules include, among other things, no racing, no passing without signals, etc . . .
An instructor's goal should be to ensure that you are having a good time while learning. If you are not having a good time, chances are the instructor isn't either. Life is too short to not have a good time at a DE. The next time you are in the car with someone and you are not having a good time, go talk to the Chief Instructor. I am certain he or she will address the issue. It doesn't have to be a complaint or personal, but rather just a recognition of the obvious: the student and the instructor are not meshing as well as they could.
Also, nobody can force you to let them drive your car. No instructors have ever asked to drive my car. I have always had to push people into driving my car (I guess it might be different if I had a sexier car
). If someone asks you, the solutions is simple to the extent you are uncomfortable: Just say no. Even if you are comfortable at first but then you don't like how they are actually driving the car, just tell them to pit in. Problem solved.
DEs are, like most things in life, all about what you want them to be about.
In order to have fun, you have to not get hurt and bring your car home in one piece. Apart from these prerequisites, though, each person's definition of fun can be entirely different.
Some people try to drive as well and as fast as they can (I lean towards this end), while others are content with taking their car out for a sunday drive.
In light of the different definitions of "fun," there have to be a few ground rules designed to ensure that nobody gets hurt and that everybody takes their cars home in one piece.
These rules include, among other things, no racing, no passing without signals, etc . . .
An instructor's goal should be to ensure that you are having a good time while learning. If you are not having a good time, chances are the instructor isn't either. Life is too short to not have a good time at a DE. The next time you are in the car with someone and you are not having a good time, go talk to the Chief Instructor. I am certain he or she will address the issue. It doesn't have to be a complaint or personal, but rather just a recognition of the obvious: the student and the instructor are not meshing as well as they could.
Also, nobody can force you to let them drive your car. No instructors have ever asked to drive my car. I have always had to push people into driving my car (I guess it might be different if I had a sexier car
). If someone asks you, the solutions is simple to the extent you are uncomfortable: Just say no. Even if you are comfortable at first but then you don't like how they are actually driving the car, just tell them to pit in. Problem solved.DEs are, like most things in life, all about what you want them to be about.
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09-25-2006, 01:53 PM
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As a national PCA instructor and mentor (someone who trains future instructors) I want to weigh in.
DE is not racing. The goal of most instructors I know is to help the student become a better driver, not racer. The skills we teach should make you a better driver on the street. At no time, do I ever teach racing techniques to students in a PCA environment. (I do coach racers but that is a different venue and environment). As for driving a student's car, we do that down here for the first two laps of the first session for a number of reasons but I can assure you that if an instructor scared you while doing this, and you let the cheif instructor know, he or she would be severely reprimanded or ejected. This is no place for these types (Ghetto Racer comes to mind).
I hope your experience that you seem to have had will not cloud your opinion of PCA's DE program. From what I have seen, it is a well run program and has some of the best instructors around.
DE is not racing. The goal of most instructors I know is to help the student become a better driver, not racer. The skills we teach should make you a better driver on the street. At no time, do I ever teach racing techniques to students in a PCA environment. (I do coach racers but that is a different venue and environment). As for driving a student's car, we do that down here for the first two laps of the first session for a number of reasons but I can assure you that if an instructor scared you while doing this, and you let the cheif instructor know, he or she would be severely reprimanded or ejected. This is no place for these types (Ghetto Racer comes to mind).
I hope your experience that you seem to have had will not cloud your opinion of PCA's DE program. From what I have seen, it is a well run program and has some of the best instructors around.
09-25-2006, 10:19 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
two points from your comments. All instructors in our region drive the students car for the first two laps. this is to make sure the car is safe and sound. second, there is no passing as in a race situation. the passing is VERY controlled and limited to designated passing zones and only after the lead car signals it is ok to pass. Very safe and controlled. never in braking zones or corners.
And the most off base comment you made was that an instructor was reckless with a STUDENTS car?! While that may have been the case. This instructor would have never taught again in our club or region.
You must have had the worst instructor EVER!! The instructors in our region are polite, patient, courteous, and VERY responsible, oh yeah the definition of a PCA instructor!
Hope you attend another PCA DE and have a much better experience!!!!
And the most off base comment you made was that an instructor was reckless with a STUDENTS car?! While that may have been the case. This instructor would have never taught again in our club or region.
You must have had the worst instructor EVER!! The instructors in our region are polite, patient, courteous, and VERY responsible, oh yeah the definition of a PCA instructor!
Hope you attend another PCA DE and have a much better experience!!!!
09-25-2006, 11:02 PM
#10
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Paulty
"...Not one, and I emphasize, NONE, have asked to drive my car..."
I'm not sure where you run, but almost without fail the instructors drive the student's car for the 1st 2 laps, particularly if the student is a pure novice. Often times I will drive a 3rd lap if requested. The first time student needs to see the landscape of the track without worrying about driving; needs to see the corner workers; needs to pay attention, but be relaxed enough to handle the track pressure. Get the permission of the student is always a plus, but I as a certified national instructor generally will insist on driving the 1st couple of laps...at less than 6/10's always! How else will you possibly know whether the car is track worthy?
"...DE rules are created to allow the faster car/driver to pass the slower car/driver safely. If there is a car behind you, that means they are faster. You signal when you are ready to let them pass, you slow down as they pass, you give them room at the upcoming corner..."
What you say is "about" right, but I'd use a bit more precision in describing the passing/being passed mechanics. If a faster driver has come into your mirrors, you wait until you are in a passing zone, your car is settled and then give the driver behind you a clear signal to overtake you. You stay "on line" and you give a pass signal for each car behind you. Once the overtaking car goes "off line" and begins to pass you, you may have to lift off of the throttle because you are not drag racing him down the straight (your car may have 350hp and the overtaking car may have 200 hp; let him go by. But don't lift or slow down while you're in the turn...that could be dangerous for you and the cars behind you.
Virtually every instructor I know, drives the student's car the 1st couple of laps and they do this with great respect.
And, you're are right that DE is not racing.
__________________
"...Not one, and I emphasize, NONE, have asked to drive my car..."
I'm not sure where you run, but almost without fail the instructors drive the student's car for the 1st 2 laps, particularly if the student is a pure novice. Often times I will drive a 3rd lap if requested. The first time student needs to see the landscape of the track without worrying about driving; needs to see the corner workers; needs to pay attention, but be relaxed enough to handle the track pressure. Get the permission of the student is always a plus, but I as a certified national instructor generally will insist on driving the 1st couple of laps...at less than 6/10's always! How else will you possibly know whether the car is track worthy?
"...DE rules are created to allow the faster car/driver to pass the slower car/driver safely. If there is a car behind you, that means they are faster. You signal when you are ready to let them pass, you slow down as they pass, you give them room at the upcoming corner..."
What you say is "about" right, but I'd use a bit more precision in describing the passing/being passed mechanics. If a faster driver has come into your mirrors, you wait until you are in a passing zone, your car is settled and then give the driver behind you a clear signal to overtake you. You stay "on line" and you give a pass signal for each car behind you. Once the overtaking car goes "off line" and begins to pass you, you may have to lift off of the throttle because you are not drag racing him down the straight (your car may have 350hp and the overtaking car may have 200 hp; let him go by. But don't lift or slow down while you're in the turn...that could be dangerous for you and the cars behind you.
Virtually every instructor I know, drives the student's car the 1st couple of laps and they do this with great respect.
And, you're are right that DE is not racing.
__________________
09-25-2006, 11:33 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
I wonder...does zo6 confuse an intructor's enthusiasm that he "get on it" driving the track==you know,those coached skills where we reach out of our comfort zone and become acustomed to braking less and pressing more-- with teaching racing?
09-25-2006, 11:52 PM
#12
I am still not at all sure what the motivation is for the question ( I got stuck on the grammar) but I do appreciate the patience and positive comments by some of my colleagues and favorite Instructors.
The goals of every region of the PCA DE Program are the same. I think they are clearly outlined in several of the above responses.
I can assure you of this, great care is taken to assure that the quality of Instructors is VERY high in every Region that I have been associated with.
PCA National has gone to great lengths in the past few years to ensure consistency in the programs in the various regions, while allowing the respective regions to get it done with their own style.
Can anyone guarantee that EVERY Instructor is going to behave in an appropriate manner........I don't think so. However if a report comes back to me (or any other DE Chair or CTI that I know) would we bust some butt? You bet. Without the students coming out to play we don't need the Instructors and we don't get to play.......when you **** off one of the students you **** off me and a bunch of other guys.
Stupid behavior is not tolerated in any of the clubs that I am affiliated with (about 10) by students or Instructors.
If you have had a problem, or are still confused you should contact one of the event organizers.
One of the reasons I responded was to mention that it is up to the region to decide if the Instructor should drive the students car: some say do some say don't....obviously I am for it now about a ride in that GT3.........
The goals of every region of the PCA DE Program are the same. I think they are clearly outlined in several of the above responses.
I can assure you of this, great care is taken to assure that the quality of Instructors is VERY high in every Region that I have been associated with.
PCA National has gone to great lengths in the past few years to ensure consistency in the programs in the various regions, while allowing the respective regions to get it done with their own style.
Can anyone guarantee that EVERY Instructor is going to behave in an appropriate manner........I don't think so. However if a report comes back to me (or any other DE Chair or CTI that I know) would we bust some butt? You bet. Without the students coming out to play we don't need the Instructors and we don't get to play.......when you **** off one of the students you **** off me and a bunch of other guys.
Stupid behavior is not tolerated in any of the clubs that I am affiliated with (about 10) by students or Instructors.
If you have had a problem, or are still confused you should contact one of the event organizers.
One of the reasons I responded was to mention that it is up to the region to decide if the Instructor should drive the students car: some say do some say don't....obviously I am for it
now about a ride in that GT3.........
09-26-2006, 12:29 AM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I have about ten years experience lapping, my last car was a 500HP Z06 in which I set an all class Solo 1 lap record at one of our tracks that still stands today.
Being new to PCA DE I am going threw the hoops, last year I was awarded the rookie of the year. All my instructors have been great. I still consider myself an average driver, more seat time would help but then again I cant afford to push my GT3 off a cliff.
By saying all this I do have an idea about what is considered responsible fast driving.
All the posted comments on what to expect from a PCA DE instructor is exactly as I thought, anybody who drives a fellow enthusiasts car should do so with respect. I would expect an instructor to have the sense to drive a car at 6 to 7 tenths until he has a better read on how it will react, this also being true when driving a different model then what your used to.
This is what I would expect from a PCA nationally certified instructor. This was not the case here and I rather not get into more details at this time. It's not good.
Who is reponsible for the PCA instructors if there was a complaint?
Being new to PCA DE I am going threw the hoops, last year I was awarded the rookie of the year. All my instructors have been great. I still consider myself an average driver, more seat time would help but then again I cant afford to push my GT3 off a cliff.
By saying all this I do have an idea about what is considered responsible fast driving.
All the posted comments on what to expect from a PCA DE instructor is exactly as I thought, anybody who drives a fellow enthusiasts car should do so with respect. I would expect an instructor to have the sense to drive a car at 6 to 7 tenths until he has a better read on how it will react, this also being true when driving a different model then what your used to.
This is what I would expect from a PCA nationally certified instructor. This was not the case here and I rather not get into more details at this time. It's not good.
Who is reponsible for the PCA instructors if there was a complaint?
09-26-2006, 12:55 AM
#14
Pete Tremper is the National Chairman of the PCA DE Program. Find him at WWW.PCA.org.
Having said that your first complaint should be to the DE Chairman, or the Chief Instructor of the PCA Region hosting the event.
Having said that your first complaint should be to the DE Chairman, or the Chief Instructor of the PCA Region hosting the event.
09-26-2006, 01:12 AM
#15
On temporary vacation
This may be a touchy subject to some, but here goes.
I'm a BMW instructor with the BMWCCA Pacific Region. I've never been to a PCA DE so I don't know their set up, but I've been to joint events with the PCA and BMW Clubs. I've given instruction to one of the Zone 8 PCA instructors that I used to race with at Willow Springs when I instructed with Driving Concepts.
I've never heard of a BMW or PCA instructor ask to drive a students car, but we have offered to give them a ride in our own cars so that the student can see the potential of the car and what techniques we are trying to stress during certain sections of the track. That being said, the sensation of speed is greater from the passenger side than the driver's side. One of the reasons is that you don't have control. A good example is braking points. An instructor who is familiar with a particular track knows his/her braking points and that may be deeper than yours and that will naturally make you feel uncomfortable.
Another point may be that the instructor may be using a vocabulary that is more prone to racing verbage, but at a DE it is not intended to be interpreted as racing. I was not there, so I don't know.
Z06, it sounds as though you have experience, but possibly not with a rear engine car. My GT3 is my first rear engine car and although I am an instructor for BMW and have supreme confidence in my driving ability, I am not too proud to ask countless questions as this car is new to me and I wouldn't mind being a student with PCA to learn the little details in driving this particular car.
I hope that I did not offend any of the instructors on this forum, as this is not my intent, it is simply my experience and opinions.
I'm a BMW instructor with the BMWCCA Pacific Region. I've never been to a PCA DE so I don't know their set up, but I've been to joint events with the PCA and BMW Clubs. I've given instruction to one of the Zone 8 PCA instructors that I used to race with at Willow Springs when I instructed with Driving Concepts.
I've never heard of a BMW or PCA instructor ask to drive a students car, but we have offered to give them a ride in our own cars so that the student can see the potential of the car and what techniques we are trying to stress during certain sections of the track. That being said, the sensation of speed is greater from the passenger side than the driver's side. One of the reasons is that you don't have control. A good example is braking points. An instructor who is familiar with a particular track knows his/her braking points and that may be deeper than yours and that will naturally make you feel uncomfortable.
Another point may be that the instructor may be using a vocabulary that is more prone to racing verbage, but at a DE it is not intended to be interpreted as racing. I was not there, so I don't know.
Z06, it sounds as though you have experience, but possibly not with a rear engine car. My GT3 is my first rear engine car and although I am an instructor for BMW and have supreme confidence in my driving ability, I am not too proud to ask countless questions as this car is new to me and I wouldn't mind being a student with PCA to learn the little details in driving this particular car.
I hope that I did not offend any of the instructors on this forum, as this is not my intent, it is simply my experience and opinions.