mitch236

Ok, so maybe the 20 minute session is too short. As I said, I am trying to figure this out and don't claim to have the answers.

I don't second guess the organizers but I do think that ongoing self reflection and the desire to improve must continue.

What other ideas do you guys have? I like the idea of bringing in professionals to instruct occaisionally.

At the end of this thread I plan to compile all of the ideas and present them to our local clubs for consideration.

Jay Gratton

1.) I would love to have only one student! However, I know with our region if that happend a lot less people would get in and then track events would cost more then they already do. I like to invite my students to lunch with me. Yes, it is harder to find time with 2 students, but we need to do the best we can with what we have. It can be done correctly!
2.) 20 minutes is a bad idea, by the time you get your warm up lap done and your cool down lap done at the end you'd probably have 14-15 minutes. Not enough seat time to teach. No matter what anyone says their is no sub for seat time.
3.) In our region we do have classroom sessions. I wish all regions would do this as I find the learning curve is much higher when the student can sit and process what they have learned on the track.
There is no perfect answer, but I think your on the right track by looking to improve certain areas.

Bigpinekey

I instruct for many different groups and I always find it difficult to know what the beginners (1st timers) learn in the classroom in the first class. Are they taught what turn-in, apex, track-out are? What about oversteer and understeer?

It hard as heck to teach those terms while in the car and we’re trying to get the student to execute them. It’s like building the fort and fighting the Indians at the same time.

Once I have an idea of the student’s classroom foundation, it is much easier to teach. I’m in favor of an advance copy of a classroom outline or syllabus that we could review so we know what and when the students have been taught. Short of that, an advance 10-15 minute meeting with the classroom instructor telling us what he’ll teach in the first session would be invaluable.

Z-man

As a newly appointed instructor, I can say that the PCA National Instructors program is a very good start. It formalized the training process across the nation. If all DE instructors are teaching from the same book, then there is a sense on continuity for the students, vs. learning altogether different techniques at separate events with different instructors.

I feel that all current PCA instructors (not just the candidates) should go through this training process. Every 5 years. Getting a refresher course on 'the basics' is always a good idea - too many of us tend to over-complicate the learning process for our students...

I also think that instructors should behave the way the expect their students to behave. Ex: the point by. All too often this rule is not adhered to in the Black and Red run groups. When you think about how many instructors have students with them, and how many of these students see how upper run group drivers stretch the rules, that is NOT a good example. I mean, there is no checker, no winners in DE - even in the Red/Black groups. Concerned that a slower driver is going to ruin your momentum? Well, you've just displaced his momentum by passing him without his approval.

Food for thought.
-Z-man.

Tom W

Mitch (and Larry): Regarding 2 students. I was looking at it from a different perspective as I've never had to instruct 2 novice students at once. Out here you may have a novice and then an advanced student to yield 2 students. The advanced student would be for 1-2 sessions. We also get novice students that have been through some classroom before they get to us and get more classroom (seperate from us) during the day. I've found that a 5 minute pre-meeting with the student and the time spent on grid before going out is usually enough to get an idea of what I will be dealing with.

Yes, it is much nicer to take 5-10 minutes to do a post session discussion with the student too, and that's where the organizer makes compromises (our PCA regions don't but other organizers may).

Larry Herman

Tom, having 1 instructed (green/blue) and 1 solo (intermediate) student like you mentioned would be no problem.

mitch236

How about having an annual solo re-certification policy?

Down here as far a PCA national instructors, we all go through the program somewhat every year. We just don't sit through the classroom lecture.

agio

Tom
A couple thoughts for you.
2-Why? Not because students turn to idiots at 21 minutes! Why not then make the run sessions 1 hour...or more? Limiting the time of each run on the track and the number of runs in a day to something reasonable makes perfect sense to me.
3-we (almost agree) Solo drivers..."they have to...ask" That is the point Tom, they may be reluctant to ask for help or they may think they don't need the help...is it actually possible that solo drivers may think they are just too good to need some helpful reminders? From time to time, I'll be we all do. And, who better is in the position to evaluate their driving and the potential to become our next instructors...or, if necessary, to be placed in a lower group until there is improvement...I'd say it would be some sign off instructors or the chief instrutor. The point is made? BTW, in our solo groups, I don't see many "putt-putting" around with their super fast cars.
As an aside, I was one of the original mentor instructors who helped launch the national PCA program several years ago here in Florida...and, as a certified card carrying mentor, I am astonished that you don't see the potential benefits as outlined in Mitch's discussion.
I think Mitch is onto something very valuable and I, for one, am onboard!

993inNC

#2. I would have to disagree with (depending on the length of the track) 20 min's is perfect. You can't expect to teach a "green" driver everything in one weekend. 20 min's allows you (the instructor) the opportunity to assess what the driver knows and doesn't. I usually try to work on one "task" at a time with them, the worst thing you can do is overload the driver with to much info. Keep in mind, with class instruction,they're already overwhelmed with info and now they have to execute in front of a stranger........no, no pressure Yes there's no substitute for seat time, but like the old saying goes about throwing good money after bad, there's no sense in going round and round if they aren't grasping it. When that happens to me, I like to pull out the track map and draw......there's no substitute for graphics. If that doesn't work, I take 'em for a ride.

3. Yes assuming you teach what the class room is teaching. And there in lies the problem.

VERBOTN

Mitch

please include me in the distribution list for the summary. I wold like to give input to my region.

Tom W

Regarding #2: I don't know about you folk out east, but out here 20-30 minutes is the norm. I don't see a big difference in driver fatigue in the 10 minutes. I do see fatigue as an issue later in the day and if I have a student that isn't driving as well at the end of the day as he/she was previously, I suggest it may be time to quit (and most actually agree and do quit early). If nothing else, a longer run session is an opportunity to teach the novice what fatigue feels like and recognize it's time to quit (session or day). I would love 1 hour or longer sessions but only see them on open track days where novice drivers are not allowed.

#3: Yes, they have to ask. Most resent having an instructor forced on them if they have been signed off to solo. It's easy to insist on an instructor after a black flag. I just don't see many instructors volunteering to run in a slow group to try and keep an eye on the drivers when the corner workers are already doing that. (We have all professional corner workers and not trained/untrained volunteers.) I'm not saying it could not help, I just think it would be a very marginal benefit.

As so much depends on perspective, here's and example for me. Last week at Sears Point/Infineon we had 120 divers in 4 run groups (novice, intermediate, advanced and instructor) of 30 each. Every novice (26 of them) had an instructor all day (different morning and afternoon instructors though). Most, but not all, the intermediate students all had an instructor assigned and required for at least one session. After that it was up to the student to ask the instructor to remain for the morning or the instructor to insist (if needed). Advanced students could ask for an instructor to join them for a session or two at any time during the day, but none were assigned.

Many instructors had both a novice and an intermediate driver in the morning and just a novice in the afternoon. Some had a lighter load and only had an intermediate in the morning and novice in the afternoon assigned. These instructors also picked up the duties for advanced drivers that wanted an instructor in the morning or a request from an intermediate for an afternoon session.

All novice drivers had a 1 hour classroom session before going out on the track and 2 debrief sessions during the day. They were strongly encouraged to have their instructor drive their car for 3 laps in the first session to be shown the line and some discussion before being put behind the wheel.

I found my morning's intermediate student at tech and arranged to have him ride with me in the first run group so I could ensure he knew the line, flag stations, etc before he went out. I also gave a few intermediate or advance students rides to see the line and address questions/concerns, especially with regard to turn 8 where an off will be a very bad thing (one GT3 was totaled there during the day).

How does this differ from out east?

993inNC

Tom,

Sounds pretty much like what we "in the south" do. Class time, run time, more class......
I don't think a "newbie" or anyone with limited track time should be on a track for an hour or more. Maybe the advanced run groups could benefit from it, but newbies should gain seat time through experience a little bit at a time. Teach them a little, let them practice, more teaching, more practice. And in reality, with as popular as the DE's seem to be, there's no way to give an hours worth of track time to any one group without another suffering.
My .02 cents is that if someone really wants/needs that much track time in their lives, they need to look towards racing. I thought DE's were just to teach people how to be able to drive their cars in a safe manner and in an enclosed "safe" environment.

Greg Smith

I am totally up for more class time for yellow and white.

Capt. Carrera

I think any changes to DE should make it more accessible. For example, some clubs do "Taste of the Track" attendance. You sign up and go to the even for $25 or $30. They can't drive, but get to attend the classes, talk to folks in the paddock, and ride with an instructor for a session. Insurance is in place since they signed all the required waivers.

Here’s my considerate feedback on the specific ideas you present.

Self fulfilling. Events that consistently have two students per instructor have a harder time getting instructors. Most instructors seek out events where they have one student.
I disagree. If your student is getting squirrelly, pull them into the pits for a bit. It does not matter if it's been three minutes, or thirty.
Why? The concepts are easy. Even the application is not rocket science. What students really need is practice.
Should not be necessary. A 'lacking' driver will either get flagged, or complained about. Corner workers rule as observers. They do a great job.
I think late model cars have nothing to do with it. I find that with PCM, ABS, and all the other electronics, students can get away with all sorts of stuff. Shift in a corner? Jump off the gas in a corner? No problem! The cars are easier to drive. I’ll agree that the speed new cars can obtain that can be disconcerting when a green students at the wheel. However, any instructor worth their salt will have a variety of ways to limit the speed a student can reach.

Bull

[QUOTE=mitch236]Last weekend a friend and I were having a discussion about instructing at DE. Recent legal events have made us concerned about ways to improve and safeguard our corps. We also think it is high time that DE instruction gets a makeover given the performance of late model cars.

So we would invite all instructors to comment on ways to improve DE instruction.

Some thoughts we have:

Limit students to one per instructor.

Limit the student's session time to 20 minute runs

More classroom instruction, especially for the intermediate and solo (the forgotten group).

Have a senior instructor run in the solo group as an observer to pick out the problem solo driver and get that driver back up to snuff.



All thoughts are appreciated. We just want to make instruction as good as possible.[/QUOTE

Maybe we should define the present state of "DE Instruction", so that we have a common understanding of where we are before we decide where (if) we need to go. The Region where I do most of my instructing already incorporates all of your points above to a reasonable extent.