mitch236

Last weekend a friend and I were having a discussion about instructing at DE. Recent legal events have made us concerned about ways to improve and safeguard our corps. We also think it is high time that DE instruction gets a makeover given the performance of late model cars.

So we would invite all instructors to comment on ways to improve DE instruction.

Some thoughts we have:

Limit students to one per instructor.

Limit the student's session time to 20 minute runs

More classroom instruction, especially for the intermediate and solo (the forgotten group).

Have a senior instructor run in the solo group as an observer to pick out the problem solo driver and get that driver back up to snuff.



All thoughts are appreciated. We just want to make instruction as good as possible.

TD in DC

Mitch,

I appreciate your concern, and, since I am not yet an instructor, I do not really know if my opinion on your specific suggestions will be that helpful.

However, with respect to your concern about liability, which is valid, I would like to point out that the best defense against claims is "common sense." Too many times, organizations will rush to adopt a bunch of rules in response to fear over liability, and this can backfire. I think that common sense is the best response, and good insructor training is certainly common sense. I also think it is important to say what you do and do what you say. If you exercise common sense and say what you do and do what you say, the waivers "should" be pretty effective against nearly every claim . . .

Just my two cents.

Tom W

My $0.02

(1) Why? How does having more than one student lead to any different instruction. Yes, it's a bit of a rush to zip from one student to another if the sessions are basck-to-back, but that should have no impact on the instruction the student gets. For many groups it's a financial issue. If the instructors are driving for free, the students are footing the bill and you don't want to raise prices that much.

(2) Why? Do students turn into idiots at 21 minutes? This makes no sense with regard to "improving" instruction.

(3) No objection here. More classroom is always an option. For reference GGR requires all first time drivers to do a half-day classroom "ground school" before they are allowed out and an novice drivers get to attend mandentory download sessions and additional classroom sessions at the track. Out here, solo drivers are never "forgotten" and always have additional instruction available. All they have to do is ask. I don't see how one lone driver putt-putting around with the intermediate group is going to have much of an effect on anything. That's what the corner workers get paid to do. Sounds like you need better corner workers.

I did the PCA national course last year. I thought it was very worth while. To get better instructors, spending more time practicing with other instructors seems the best way to go (in addition to some classroom, like the national program).

JCP911S

TD.... very good point. Having lots of specific rules can sound like a good way to cover yourself, but vectoring off the Fatal CGT thread, in a tough legal situation, if the plaintinf lawyer can demonstrate that specific rules were not specifically followed, this implies negligence..... more rules... more chance for rules to be broken.

A few sound rules strictly enforced are much better than alot of minor rules frequently ignored.

JCP911S

I agree that this helps the Instructor spend more time with a single student, and also reduces fatigue which is significant on a long hot weekend.

Some other thoughts:

1) Formalize Instructor training.... learning to instruct is different and harder than learning to drive... intructuing how to instruct is somethign that should be a part of the instructor development program... the roll play added to the certification is a good step in this direction, and we should create more time to expand that

2) Bring in some pro drivers to Instructor days.... we are all pretty much self-taught... pitching in a few bucks apiece to bring a pro driver for a day would really help everybody raise the bar and not cost each of us too much.

3) Have "Provisional White" students who still require say 2 sessions per weekend with a senior instructor... new White students are probably at thier most critical learning point... per your point above, 1-student instructors would have more time to spend with the advanced drivers.... also this lets the instructores work on moving beyond the "Brake, apex, tracckout" routine and get into more advanced techniques...

Larry Herman

Tom, I have to disagree with you. Having only 1 student can make a hugh difference depending on your circumstance. Years ago, when it was just jump in the street car, hitch up the belts and go, it was fairly easy to handle 2 students, and give them all the time that they needed. Remember that some students need more time than others.

Now I find that, especially with the time it takes to get into the racecar with all of the paraphenalia to attach, buckle, etc, I lose a lot of time if I have to jump from their car into mine. Also, I have 2 boys participating (both now in black) who take up some time, and various requests from the uninstructed intermediates for my time. As a result, if I have a second student, I have little time at all to devote to their "out of car instruction", and don't particularly enjoy the hectic schedule.

mitch236

Todd, sorry if you misread my post. I am not looking to give us instructors better legal protection. I am merely trying to improve the quality of the program. The point about liability was referring to the thought that if you have rules, you must stick to them. I was thinking about informing drivers about moved walls, track out and track in proceedures etc.... When we have driver's meetings, why don't we make drivers accountable for not showing up?

Tom, I can only give you my opinion:

1) Having more than one student means there is no time for quality instruction. Instruction should continue in the paddock. There is no time to teach the finer points while at speed. There is no way to explain even basic concepts while at speed. About the only thing that most instuctors can get done while lapping is teach the line.

2) I believe that extending the session time overloads the student and makes "red mist" more likely. There is also a point where the student starts regressing as a driver. 20 minutes would limit this. IMHO the ultimate scenario would be out for 10 minutes then in the pits for 5 to discuss points then back out for 10 then in for 5 etc... Not possible but this would inprove the learning curve.


I really like the idea of better insrtuctor training and this should continue year round. We have made suggestions to our local clubs to allow for instructor training year round but this was dismissed.

mrbill_fl

When I did a BMW marketing 'autox' the instructors were really really good.

similar to the skippy instructors, great communication skills. honed delivery, practiced thousands of times...

I'd rather have a few of these guys do a classroom day than a pro driver.
(unless of course they also regulary instruct)

leonc944

1) If you don't like having more than one student, stay away from the events at which you are slammed. Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me.

2) Some students don't get it until after the first 20 minutes, then they have to relearn it all again. Leave the scheduling to the organizer, who may have a reason for a 30 minute rungroup.

3) Yes, more classroom instruction is fine, but observation of problem drivers and reports from the flaggers and feedback from other drivers in the group will help as much as having the chief instructor hobbled into driving with white.

So, if you really want to make your instructor time valuable, get involved in the organization of the event, and don't second-guess the organizer until you have driven a mile on their tires.

JCP911S

Actually alot of the "professional" schools use PCA and other club instructors.

Still i think it would be cool to bring in one of the Rolex or ALMS guys for the day just to get a different perspecitive on things and see the level of driving first hand... $20 a head would probably cover it.

TD in DC

Gotcha Mitch. Sorry, I just expect that more rules will be a predictable result of the lawsuit, but I think it would be a mistake. JCP911S understood exactly where I was coming from.

I am all for improving quality, but I will keep my mouth shut since I have yet to instruct anyone. If and when I become and instructor, I will be happy to received further quality training.

Flying Finn

1) I agree. I've done it and it makes the whole day too busy and much less enjoyable for the instructor. And because you're so busy, there is basically no time to discuss between sessions with your student.

2) I disagree. OK, it would make instructors "life" easier but on the other hand, the instruction & learning will be less good if the session is short. 30 min. goes by really fast and less time you have, less there is opportunities to try different lines etc.

3) I agree. And it would be good to have a session in the middle of the day so students could ask questions they have now after driving couple of sessions.

Alan C.

I had 3 students once. I was in the car for 2 hours at a stretch including my time. I'd then get a half hour break and start again. Never again with that group.

Bill N

As a student, I have no first-hand experience of the life of an instructor, but I can well imagine that jumping from car to car without time to take a leak would be fatiguing!

I often to out with our local BMW group, which has great instruction. Students are never permanently signed off...in the advanced group, we start each day with an assigned instructor, who normally signs us off after the first session, but is available throughout the weekend, both to come out again or for consultation, and who may elect not to sign us off right away. I think this is a good system. I like to get someone to come out with me at least once every weekend, whether the group I am with requires it or not...it keeps me honest, and always gives me something new to think about and try.

I am starting to find ongoing classroom sessions a little tedious, though. We seem to be going over the same stuff each time, and after a while, I think much more is to be gained through the personalized input allowed by individual instruction.

bobt993

Some thoughts we have:
Limit students to one per instructor.
Limit the student's session time to 20 minute runs
More classroom instruction, especially for the intermediate and solo (the forgotten group).
Have a senior instructor run in the solo group as an observer to pick out the problem solo driver and get that driver back up to snuff.

All thoughts are appreciated. We just want to make instruction as good as possible.[/QUOTE]

Mitch, most of this is already part of our RTR DE program. I suggested that on top of this Larry should move out of G/B students and mentor solo drivers by also riding in the group. Our cheif instructor does this already, but he is running very near 2mins flat at the Glen and usually does not spend too much time behind white group drivers to watch them. The rest of your suggestions were discussed at our National training last month.