Improving the DE instructor's corp
06-14-2006, 10:28 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Bull
How in the world do you go through the PCA National Instructor Certification Training without the classroom review and discussion? Key word is discussion.
The already certified Instructors participate in a round table discussion forum between their on track sessions, and do on-track Role-playing.
We have been doing that for a few years.
06-14-2006, 10:32 PM
#47
Originally Posted by leonc944
1) If you don't like having more than one student, stay away from the events at which you are slammed. Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me.
2) Some students don't get it until after the first 20 minutes, then they have to relearn it all again. Leave the scheduling to the organizer, who may have a reason for a 30 minute rungroup.
3) Yes, more classroom instruction is fine, but observation of problem drivers and reports from the flaggers and feedback from other drivers in the group will help as much as having the chief instructor hobbled into driving with white.
So, if you really want to make your instructor time valuable, get involved in the organization of the event, and don't second-guess the organizer until you have driven a mile on their tires.
2) Some students don't get it until after the first 20 minutes, then they have to relearn it all again. Leave the scheduling to the organizer, who may have a reason for a 30 minute rungroup.
3) Yes, more classroom instruction is fine, but observation of problem drivers and reports from the flaggers and feedback from other drivers in the group will help as much as having the chief instructor hobbled into driving with white.
So, if you really want to make your instructor time valuable, get involved in the organization of the event, and don't second-guess the organizer until you have driven a mile on their tires.
BTW Well said!!!
06-15-2006, 09:16 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by AMG951
Just a couple of comments on your original question on making the instructors better.
I've been instructing in PCA since 92 and have been involved with many corporate events organized at our home track with Pro racers.
I must say that PCA has a better teaching structure and philosophy than anything I know off. The emphasis is on teaching. I'll say that in the good old days, we would show up at the track and anybody who had some track experience would be asked to sit with a student and show them around. I'm sure it doesn't happen anymore. Right?
Here's a couple of thoughts:
1- I've had as much as three students on an event. 2 full greenies (One in white) and a check ??? ride in blue. I don't believe it does any good for the students or the instructor. The instructor has to keep his concentration for all students and get on the track for his own group. It was not fun (or safe) at the end of the day...We managed (so far) to limit one student per instructor.
2- We've tried to have three 30 minutes sessions compared to four 20 minutes. For the instructor and student, we saw advantages to the shorter sessions. Of course there is no substitute for seat time but it has to be enjoyable and focused seat time. We saw the concentration level and incident rate increase with the longer sessions and we went back to the 20 minutes sessions. Of course some students (and instructors!) will keep their concentration up for longer but we go for the lowest common denominator...
3- We did invite (many times) Pro racers to help us. It was always fun (as they showed us a couple of fast tricks) , did it help our teaching? No. Their main job is not teaching, it's racing. Our best invested money was with Bill Buff because we all worked on teaching.
4- I believe it's important to organize instructor days to bring new and old instructors on the same page and assess new candidate. It's the best time for an invited guess.
5- I also see too many instructors who don't have communication device (Chatter box). It becomes very tiring to yell all day...I find it almost impossible to work without one.
Hoping it helps.
I've been instructing in PCA since 92 and have been involved with many corporate events organized at our home track with Pro racers.
I must say that PCA has a better teaching structure and philosophy than anything I know off. The emphasis is on teaching. I'll say that in the good old days, we would show up at the track and anybody who had some track experience would be asked to sit with a student and show them around. I'm sure it doesn't happen anymore. Right?
Here's a couple of thoughts:
1- I've had as much as three students on an event. 2 full greenies (One in white) and a check ??? ride in blue. I don't believe it does any good for the students or the instructor. The instructor has to keep his concentration for all students and get on the track for his own group. It was not fun (or safe) at the end of the day...We managed (so far) to limit one student per instructor.
2- We've tried to have three 30 minutes sessions compared to four 20 minutes. For the instructor and student, we saw advantages to the shorter sessions. Of course there is no substitute for seat time but it has to be enjoyable and focused seat time. We saw the concentration level and incident rate increase with the longer sessions and we went back to the 20 minutes sessions. Of course some students (and instructors!) will keep their concentration up for longer but we go for the lowest common denominator...
3- We did invite (many times) Pro racers to help us. It was always fun (as they showed us a couple of fast tricks) , did it help our teaching? No. Their main job is not teaching, it's racing. Our best invested money was with Bill Buff because we all worked on teaching.
4- I believe it's important to organize instructor days to bring new and old instructors on the same page and assess new candidate. It's the best time for an invited guess.
5- I also see too many instructors who don't have communication device (Chatter box). It becomes very tiring to yell all day...I find it almost impossible to work without one.
Hoping it helps.
I don't know who you are, but these are my thoughts exactly. In fact, I have been fortunate enough to not only meet Bill Buff but to also become his friend and protege. I never cease learning from him.
I understand that organizers have many more issues than the grumblings of a few instructors. I want to become more involved, that is the point of this thread. I first want to learn as much as possible about the thinking of as many instructors as possible. I am not a complainer in my region and am not going to start now. I don't believe in having alot of rules. I believe in education. Not only for the students but for all of us. At the end of the day, I want to have a set of suggestions to guide the future of our instructor's corp. That is where the start is. Because if we have better instruction, it has to trickle down to every driver we teach and then becomes self propagating. We should all strive to be the best we can be.
06-15-2006, 02:00 PM
#49
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Hi Mitch,
strange enough, i always enjoy Bill's company. I think he likes me too...I must say that my first contact was not positive because he was trying to make me better and I must confess that I was a bit close minded (on that day!)
Are you going to the 48 hrs at the Glen next week? We could meet and discuss further.
strange enough, i always enjoy Bill's company. I think he likes me too...I must say that my first contact was not positive because he was trying to make me better and I must confess that I was a bit close minded (on that day!)
Are you going to the 48 hrs at the Glen next week? We could meet and discuss further.
06-15-2006, 02:36 PM
#50
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AMG951 is the Chief Driving Instructor of the Rennsport Region. I can confirm that he knows a thing or two about driving and the teaching thereof. He also builds the fastest damn outlaw 951's. A simple matter of removing the top and anything else deemed surplus to the cause of making a car fast. He calls them spyders. I call them damn fast.
Bill Buff is gruff. He is also one of the finest teachers I've met. Demanding - yes. Is it worth it? Yes. Very.
Regards,
Bill Buff is gruff. He is also one of the finest teachers I've met. Demanding - yes. Is it worth it? Yes. Very.
Regards,
06-15-2006, 04:35 PM
#51
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Well, I will throw my .02 into the mix.
I too have had the pleasure of knowing Bill Buff for 20 years. First, up in the northeast regions for 10 years and then down here in Florida for the past 11 years. Bill is not only a great instructor, but a great friend.
Frankly, I have used him as a personal resource to improve my driving skills (such as they are) as well as my ability to instruct. He may be uncompromising in his methods, but his methods work! It's as simple as that. The many conversations we've had were always fruitfull and benefited the program. While I do not profess to "talk for Bill," he has been kept fully informed of our (Mitch, me and others) efforts on this subject and on this board.
And those of us who are "ringing this wake up bell," are doing so in an effort to bring the instruction and the program to the highest level possible.
I too have had the pleasure of knowing Bill Buff for 20 years. First, up in the northeast regions for 10 years and then down here in Florida for the past 11 years. Bill is not only a great instructor, but a great friend.
Frankly, I have used him as a personal resource to improve my driving skills (such as they are) as well as my ability to instruct. He may be uncompromising in his methods, but his methods work! It's as simple as that. The many conversations we've had were always fruitfull and benefited the program. While I do not profess to "talk for Bill," he has been kept fully informed of our (Mitch, me and others) efforts on this subject and on this board.
And those of us who are "ringing this wake up bell," are doing so in an effort to bring the instruction and the program to the highest level possible.
06-15-2006, 07:33 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
AMG951 is the Chief Driving Instructor of the Rennsport Region. I can confirm that he knows a thing or two about driving and the teaching thereof. He also builds the fastest damn outlaw 951's. A simple matter of removing the top and anything else deemed surplus to the cause of making a car fast. He calls them spyders. I call them damn fast.
Bill Buff is gruff. He is also one of the finest teachers I've met. Demanding - yes. Is it worth it? Yes. Very.
Regards,
Bill Buff is gruff. He is also one of the finest teachers I've met. Demanding - yes. Is it worth it? Yes. Very.
Regards,
thanks for the praise. I'll buy you a couple of beers.
Ciao.
06-16-2006, 02:32 PM
#54
Racer
Who is this Bill Buff character...Oh, he is that guy in that old white RS America...heard he sold it for a Cup car. He and I follow the same philosophy..the older we get the more horsepower we need..
See you guys next week..
Pete
See you guys next week..
Pete
06-16-2006, 11:14 PM
#55
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Hey Mitch;
Since you are mentored by Bill, YOU can ride with me and teach me all he knows. His dance card is too full for smokes like me.
It'll be good to see you again.
Ca Va, M. EXCEPTIONALLY well said, Mon Ami. You should put all your instructing on flash cards!
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I believe strongly in the golden asset of a classroom. One of the best ideas I've seen here is to give the instructors an overview of the classroom syllabus. Then we would know what the student knows, or has heard and is working toward.
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To me, the key to instructing is assessing how a student learns. Auditory learners are easy. When you run into your first pure visual learner, you will meet your biggest challenge. Talk means nothing to them, and the frustration that you can create by trying the usual verbal method can be immense. Realizing early on that words do not reach them is key. Making instructors aware of "how people learn" is one of the more esoteric but important keys to success.
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I look forward to seeing some of you Friday!
Since you are mentored by Bill, YOU can ride with me and teach me all he knows. His dance card is too full for smokes like me.
It'll be good to see you again.Ca Va, M. EXCEPTIONALLY well said, Mon Ami. You should put all your instructing on flash cards!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe strongly in the golden asset of a classroom. One of the best ideas I've seen here is to give the instructors an overview of the classroom syllabus. Then we would know what the student knows, or has heard and is working toward.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me, the key to instructing is assessing how a student learns. Auditory learners are easy. When you run into your first pure visual learner, you will meet your biggest challenge. Talk means nothing to them, and the frustration that you can create by trying the usual verbal method can be immense. Realizing early on that words do not reach them is key. Making instructors aware of "how people learn" is one of the more esoteric but important keys to success.
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I look forward to seeing some of you Friday!
06-17-2006, 01:05 AM
#56
Burning Brakes
Thus far I have been most impressed with BMW CCA, National Capital Chapter instructors the most, which probably some of you are part of them.
As a reference here is a synopsis of their instructor training program: http://www.nccbmwcca.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1073
On the other hand, some one in a Porsche forum posted that he became a certified PCA instructor at the recent DE by attending a 1 hour class and a ride with the chief instructor. Now, he may certainly be a very good driver, but I don't have to tell you that it takes much more than just being a good driver to a good instructor.
As a reference here is a synopsis of their instructor training program: http://www.nccbmwcca.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1073
On the other hand, some one in a Porsche forum posted that he became a certified PCA instructor at the recent DE by attending a 1 hour class and a ride with the chief instructor. Now, he may certainly be a very good driver, but I don't have to tell you that it takes much more than just being a good driver to a good instructor.
06-17-2006, 09:28 AM
#57
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Originally Posted by FlyingToaster
On the other hand, some one in a Porsche forum posted that he became a certified PCA instructor at the recent DE by attending a 1 hour class and a ride with the chief instructor. Now, he may certainly be a very good driver, but I don't have to tell you that it takes much more than just being a good driver to a good instructor.
The REAL program takes all day, 4 on-track sessions, and nearly as many classrooms. To get there, you usually already have BEEN an instructor of some repute. Now that the program has caught up with most of the old hands, you should at least have been studying the National syllabus and have been working with your local region toward accreditation.
We will be looking to grajitate another new class next weekend!
06-17-2006, 09:42 AM
#58
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Of course good driving does nothing to guarantee good instructing. If this is an accurate account of what someone experienced, then it was not the PCA National Program that I mentor for. It was a sham. That sounds more like the old days when I became a Zone 1 Instructor. We essentially learned to be instructors AFTER we were deemed worthy.
The REAL program takes all day, 4 on-track sessions, and nearly as many classrooms. To get there, you usually already have BEEN an instructor of some repute. Now that the program has caught up with most of the old hands, you should at least have been studying the National syllabus and have been working with your local region toward accreditation.
We will be looking to grajitate another new class next weekend!
The REAL program takes all day, 4 on-track sessions, and nearly as many classrooms. To get there, you usually already have BEEN an instructor of some repute. Now that the program has caught up with most of the old hands, you should at least have been studying the National syllabus and have been working with your local region toward accreditation.
We will be looking to grajitate another new class next weekend!
In the old days, there were few events and plenty of good instructors for the small numbers. As DEs took off, there was a shortage of instructors. Particualry groups like Audi Club where the whole performance car thing was fairly new. They tried hard and caught up but the instructor corps was weak for a long time. The new clubs (independent) are still often weak especially with the new clubs focused on young guys with asian imports.
I have seen some decent drivers who suck as instructors and some mediocre drivers who are very good instructiors. I think that most really good drivers are also good instructors as they have been very analytical with themselves and understand that you can not accept certain lessons until you are ready.
06-17-2006, 10:08 AM
#59
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Originally Posted by SundayDriver
My perception is that instructor quality, across all groups, is going up after declines. PCA may have neve suffered the decline, but many other groups did.
