Cheyenne

This thread needs a bump...I found it while reading back through the forum, I'm up to page 69 now.

I hope it doens't bother anyone that I drag it up.

SundayDriver, (and others!) thank you for all the input in this thread. I've spent 7500+ hours trying to learn this stuff at moderate speeds, on the street. It's nice to get the sort of info you provide to compare against what I've learned the "hard way".

Just imagine everyone, you too can spend all your free time "learning to drive" and still be snail slow! It's going to be weird when I finally get to the track! Plenty of car control...but no experience above 100MPH!

Here is my take on cornering: Moving weight around to put traction where it's needed is tempered by the "wind up" in the chassis/suspension. So while the first order of business is to get the weight where it needs to be, when it needs to be there...at some point you will have to also deal with some form of windup. I will often let it settle out by slowing the rate of weight transfer, but then usually need to compensate as I'm no longer in the right place at the right attitude.

So it works better if I account for the time/space needed for the windup to dissapate at the entry of the corner, especially on tighter S curves as otherwise you're set up to slop around fighting that, especially when you first start to really have left over lateral momentum/body roll to deal with.

Not sure I'm making sense...probably talking out my ***. Why can't I have a fast car, and just not care about technique?

RedlineMan

Ummm...

That would put you in league with the our friend Dickie Speedmaster. Enter that realm at your own peril.

No problem dragging up the thread. It is a classic, as you have seen. I had forgotten, but it came quickly back as I glanced through it. I assume by windup, you mean delay from input to reaction to stance finally taken by a stock-ish chassis? Soft car = slow reaction? Most more advanced drivers deal with that by being what appears to be a bit abrupt to the untrained eye. Forcing the car to set quicker than it would with a more gentle approach. The kind of driving you do not necessarily want your student to see, but exactly what has to be done to MAKE the car do what you need it to do at higher speeds.

Smoothness is relative to the chassis in question, and the speed one is travelling. It's all well and good to speak of smoothness, but at higher speeds it is far better to manhandle the car a bit (assertive, not rough) than to fly off the road trying to be smooth.

Now, get to the track!

Cheyenne

There is the delay from input, but then, more importantly, the aftermath when you try to hustle to take a set turning the opposite way. Waiting for things to unload on one side, and load up on the other...but staying on top of exactly where your actual (precise)direction is, regardless of anything funky the car's attitude might do. In addition to the soft car issue, and normal suspension movement there is always the chassis "twisting" on the tires, so even if you're gentle on the chassis, or have one that's stiff enough to keep up, there is a tension that is released as the set is taken. I assume this is less on race tires, but that they still twist more than the suspension mount points and body, esp. if there is a cage. (Someone please tell me if I'm wrong on that point, I've only been on track tires once, as a passenger...1:55's at Laguna, pretty dull, but still super fun. Mildly prepped 996)

So you get that abruptness you spoke of, part of which (for me) is pausing to allow the car to catch up to where I am, and make sure I haven't overcooked it at all. The stiffer the car, the more that seems to just be the tires. But ultimately, they need however much time they need to dissipate that force and so the goal is to replace that tension with the cornering load smoothly, so there is no gap.


Like going into a corner on a motorcycle, on the brakes, which compresses the forks, then releasing the brakes as you enter the corner so the cornering load replaces the braking load, and the forks stay the same amount compressed, until you ease the cornering load again. A larger, slower, more obvious effect, but the same balancing of forces to achieve smoothness in the tire loading.

I do want to get to the track...but mostly just to see where I stand. Past that, I want a lighter car, with skinny, hard tires...and a rainy afternoon in the Santa Cruz mountains. I'm a nerd, more about cutting perfect lines, perfectly poised, than reaching a high speed, or setting a great time. Errr...I mean I'm too broke to be a track junky. I fear for my wife and cat's food budget once I drive the track myself.

RedlineMan

Hey;

You're pursuing the art of driving, not speed. Different things, as you inherently seem to understand. Doing it in a floppy car is where it is learned best. It takes more skill to manage a floppy car cleanly at high speed as it does a stiff car going slowly, and a lot of people never learn that. They go for the track car too soon, and never learn. Only the car is fast, but it is never exploited to full potential. As I've always said, I'd rather be a fast driver in a slow car than a rich guy with a straight line lead foot.

Stop making excuses and get to the track. You can't do it properly on the street, and you don't need anything more than you have right now, save for a helmet.