DanR

also just read it for the first time - one of the best post ever!

JR944

Thanks for bumping. Good reading that I'm going to suggest to several of my intermediate students.
Joe

}{arlequin

td, is that you???

Rich Sandor

I think the best empirical way to determine how well you took a corner, is to compare your maximum entry speed into the next corner. If I consistantly hit 6900rpm going into the 1st brake marker for turn6, and then I do something a little different at turn 5, and now I hit 7100rpm going into turn6 - I did something better.

Larry Herman

Looking back on this thread, some of my comments are pre-G2X. Using rpms as a reference is very useful, but using data really takes it to the next level. In some turns I have found greater mid-corner speed with strangely little change in exit speed using a higher gear based on analysing that data.

One example was turn 10 at Summit Point (sweeper leading onto the front straight). I used to take it in 3rd slowing to a minimum speed of 72 mph mid-corner. Though there was no difference in speed once I got onto the straight, by using 4th, even though it felt slower because of less acceleration, I was able to enter the turn with more speed, and apex earlier with a mid-corner speed of 80 mph! It was 1/2 a second quicker and I would have only found that using data.

Phokaioglaukos

Good to see you using data, Larry. Now, have you installed the predictive lap timing firmware upgrade to your G2X? Something like you describe learning in the paddock with the PC you might be able to learn on track by glancing at the display! (Check out my article on data coming in the next Der Gasser....)

Kein_Ersatz

Thanks for the bump (to out attention), it is an interesting thread

race911

Nice to see this brought up again, as I missed it the first time around. Glancing through, it's great to see articulated some things I'd like to think I kind of "knew" or figured out via hard knocks over the years.

1. Mark's first observation about new people going for the early apex. I do believe I came at track driving backwards since my first interest in motorsports was off road rallying. So I'd be out on the dirt, usually at night, and there's no way in hell you're committing to anything before you can see it. As a beginner, anyway. So maybe that helped when I transitioned to pavement?

2. Driving the rear tires. When I got to pavement, it was in a 185's all-the-way-around '68 wannabe "S". If you didn't know where the *** end was, ignore at your peril. And from what I know now, it was horribly underdeveloped, too. Just the ticket for an 18 year old who was watching Ongais, Haywood, Fitzpatrick, etc. wring what they could out of K3's?

SundayDriver

Yes and No.

Speed comes in three stages; line, exit speed then entry (and mid-corner) speed. If you are working on stage 2, where most DE work is done past the novice stage, then you are right on the money. However, I prefer something closer to the corner, like the end of the track out curb, to check rpm or speed.

But if you are working on entry/mid-corner speed, then your exit speed is not telling you what you need to know.

Folks get fixated on slow-in, fast-out and that is great for stage 2. But what you want to graduate to is fast in, fast middle and fast out. My caution, however, is that this stage may not be appropriate for the DE environment as the risk level goes WAAAY up as you are giving away virtually all the margin for error.

SundayDriver

And, BTW, I stick to my position that you drive all cars the same. You manage the weight to go fast. You have a set of tools, including; throttle, steering & brakes. You use the tools in different ways and sequence with different cars (and the same car on different laps).

But the bottom line is you want to graduate away from thinking you need to use a certain tool for a certain kind of car. An example is thinking you need to trail brake with a 911 to rotate it. That is very often true. But when the corner entry gets some oil spilled, that tool really sucks.

Professor Helmüt Tester

Amen, again.

Regardless of fwd, rwd, front-engined, rear-engined, etc....I'm always thinking "What are my tires up to, and do either of us have any surprises in the immediate future ? My brain is constantly managing the loads on those tires...I think about tire placement and individual tire loads...and grip. While it sounds quite complicated, it can be summed up in five words: "Is this bitch gonna stick ?"

Mentally, I'm sitting on top of a box held up by a balloon at each corner.

bobt993

Mark, Just went back to this education process this weekend. The biggest problem is most shops set up the cars incorrectly and slow in avoids snap oversteer at the apex. The solution for the DE/club racers has always then been add power to calm down the rotation. This of course induces understeer and push at the exit reducing acceleration at track out. I worked with Chris Cervelli before on this, but this past weekend it set in finally because Chris sent me the proper springs and suspension components to set up the car correctly. When my lap times started falling a second a lap even on a wet track, I knew I was adjusting to fast in, mid corner rolling with extreme grip to neutral throttle until exit. The difference is staggering. I took another instructor that raced superbikes and now runs a Radical out for a ride. He was shocked by the ability of a non ground effects car to hold the road at mid-corner.

One caveat for the DE environment. Your entry speed is so much more than most drivers that you will often catch a car still turning in some 4 to 5 car lengths in front of you so be careful with who is in front of you. Same of course in a race because your perception becomes " Oh, he's leaving the turn in and going wide to let me by so might as well take it."

mhm993

Damn PHT. If that's all it is I'm gettin' myself some helium and make that SSM fly!


(Mindy)

Mahler9th

I haven't read the entire thread (I will), but I believe in starting with neutral apexes. Before I did any kind of performance driving of any kind, I watched the Skip Barber video about a half dozen times. Then I went out to LRP in my 1984 bone stock 944 and did a PCA event. I already knew the line and vocabulary before I got there. That was back in 1987.

I have been using the approach I learned from that video since then. It works for me when I instruct.

I like to work through the following with students:

1. I stick to the line chosen by the organizing group, with all instructors teaching the same thing, except for more advanced students. We drive the line even if we are not using 100% of the off the bat. The line does not change.

2. I explain to the student that our goal is to go as fast as we can. We cannot get there all at once, but that is what we are working toward. And the fastest way around a racing track is achieved by having the throttle at WOT the greatest % of time. On straights, WOT is a given. The sooner we get to WOT coming out of each corner, the higher % of WOT for the lap. Note that I don't say the longer we hold WOT the better. I focus on exit speed.

3. In a circle, we can go faster with a bigger radius. Everyone grasps this. We used to teach it in our AX schools with a skidpad. And an arc is part of a circle.

4. So, to get through corners fastest, we want to take the biggest radius arc we can. The neutral or natural (id est, geometric) apex is the point at which our tires are against the inside edge of the track (often against or on a berm) in our max radius arc.

5. The most important corner on any race track is the one before the longest straight, and the second most is... and so on...

6. We use the terms early and late apex in two ways:

a. Describing where the neutral or natural apex is on a particular corner relative to the point that we start turning. A late apex corner is one where the neutral or natural apex is further away from the turn in. An early apex is one where the neutral or natural apex is closer to the turn in point.

b. Describing where we are actually gonna apex if not on the neutral or natural apex.

7. When learning or learning a new track, walking the track is extremely helpful. Even with so much available in terms of others' data and videos on you tube and what not, it is best to see the thing in person on a walk or bike ride or really slow moving recon vehicle.

8. When learning, it is safer to take later apexes (i.e., points a little further 'round than the neutral or natural apex)-- leaving room at the exits is okay as we progress. If necessary, we can move back to the neutral or natural apexes step by step as we feel comfortable.

I have been very lucky and have only had a few students with early-apex tendencies. That is, folks with a tendency to try to apex earlier than the neutral or natural apex. When I have had these experiences with students, the ride has not been as pleasant.

Mahler9th

oops, in point 3. I mean to say that we can have more WOT.. that is the same as going faster.