SundayDriver

I don't think you fully understand how significant your observation is, in terms of your development as a driver. You have reached a very important level - one that many drivers never acheive. Let's take this to the next step...

If the car is not ready to turn, what can you do?
1) Wait for the car to catch up.
2) Change the car so it is ready when you are.
You have started to feel what you need in order to tune the car!!!!!
You can soften the rebound and get the car to come back to you quicker. What works on one track may not be right for another track.
It is time for you to try to get a test session to play with shocks as you are really starting to feel where the weight is and your times will benefit from that tuning. It is my view that you drive every car the same way, regardless of front/rear engine, etc. You manage the weight and you are right there as a driver.

Very nice.

Larry Herman

Mark, Todd is certainly getting the hang of this.

One area where you and I seem to have differing opinions is based on your above comment. I do not believe that you drive different cars the same way. The principles of braking, weight management, creating rotation, and early power are the same, but the application is different based upon the characteristics of the car.

For example, some cars are so neutral that you can dive way into the turn on the brakes, and it takes quite a while for the rear tires to need that application of throttle to make them hook up. Other cars require power quite early in the turn or you will lose the back of the car.

Maybe you are being a little more general than I am in defining "driving".

M758

TD... I don't feel this way at all.

While I always teach my students to let the car flow from one corner to the next and don't fight the car there is a difference between DE and racing.

When are looking for that last bit of speed to need to make the car turn where you want it too. If you are waiting for the car to stettle past where you really need to turn you are doing something wrong.

It could be you have picked the wrong turn in spot.
You could be too late out of the previous turn
The car could be handling like crap
or
you may need to deal with an unsettled car.

There are a couple corners I drive alot where the car is being loaded very heavily in one direction and I need to quickly change directions. So I will often give an input to toss the car the otherway.

Example...
At the now defunct AMP there was a rather qucik left right complex taken solidly in 4th.

Procedure to take it fast.

1) Touch the brakes to load the nose then turn in while loaded.
2) Turn left as you are tracking out the car is heavily side loaded and you need some trottle to plant the rear.
3)To make the following right you tap the brake. This greatly unstettles the rear, but allows you swing the rear from full right side load to full left side load very quickly.
4) Turn in right and apply power to get the back end to stick and run out of the corner.

Between the left and right turns the car never feels solid or stable. In fact done well you feel like you could spin the car coming out of the right. You are really at mid track width when you tap the brakes in what could be considered 1/2 tracking out fo the corner. If you wait till you track out completely it feels more stable, but the right hander becomes dog slow since you are on the inside of the corner.

If you take really late apex in the first left you can make the turn in for the right hander where you would like with a settled car, but you are giving up tons of speed on left hander.
So you put the car on a track to take a normal left with full track width exit, but once you have 1/2 way out tap the brakes to re load the rear to the other side for a decient turn in for the right hander. Done right you can exit this complex in 4th at enough speed to maintain pull in 4th. Too much brake and you are below the power band in 4th. Drop to 3rd and it kills all your momentum in the downchange.

That is just one place where I would count on turning in with and unstable car in order to quickyly rotate the car the otherway.

In some sense it works in the same way a rally driver does a pendulum turn except with much less sliding.

M758

Larry I think Sunday is talking about needing to balance the weight. Depending on what the static weight distribution and set-up you will have a difference weight transfer feel each corner. To be fast irrespetive of this you still need to manage that weight transfer so that you an optimize the grip for each tire for your needs.

So in any car being fast is all about managing that weight transfer in each corner. The basic method for transfering weight are relativily similar for all cars. Clearly however all cars respond differently to those techniques depending on static weight distribution, spring, shock aligment, and of course drive wheels.

TD in DC

Very interesting. So, Joe, what you are suggesting is that I just need to expand my bag of "weight management" techniques, eh?

Funny you should mention rally. I will be going to a 3 or 4 day rally school this August. I can hardly wait . . .

pedsurg

Rally school sounds very cool. What are the details?
Jack

TD in DC

http://www.team-oneil.com/

If you look under the "driving schools" tab, you will find the rally school. I have signed up for 3 days, but may stay for 4 if it is as cool as I expect it will be.

M758

RALLY

SundayDriver

To me, driving the car is making it go fast, not the mechanical steps of turn here, power there, etc. If a car is oversteering, you have a weight issue (ignoring just too much throttle). You move the weight to make the car work. Whether you use the throttle or brake to do that depends on a lot of things, including the car.

But going further, if someone focuses on the car and how it differs from another (Porsche drivers and Audi drivers tend to be the ones who most argue that their cars are unique) then you end up missing the basic lessons in managing the platform. It also hides the fact that you not only have to deal with car to car differences, but differences in the track from lap to lap.

If someone is driving at 9/10ths, then they won't feel subtle changes in the track from lap to lap, but if you are on the edge, you know the track has changed, you know when the clouds covered the sun for a few minutes, etc.

For me, what you do is the same for all cars and all conditions. Where you do it, how much and which tool you select varies.

mitch236

That's what separates the fast from the consistantly fast. Being able to switch platforms seamlessly is the true indicator. The great drivers can drive anything well.

TD in DC

I have been looking at the data from different lines around Shenandoah Circuit this past weekend, and I have discovered that some of the lines that look and feel faster while driving are actually slower than other lines. Now, I am no expert in analyzing data, so I am still comparing, but I find that to be fascinating.

I "think" that the data shows that, while driving, you feel fastest when you "sense" speed through g-forces, yet generating higher g-forces is not necessarily the "fastest" way around the track. In other words, many drivers mistakenly associate speed with g-forces, when in reality the one is not necessarily an accurate proxy for the other.

Tim, oh Tim, I sense a CC moment on the horizon . . .

Larry Herman

Todd, a good way to judge how well you have taken a corner is by exit RPMs. I have a spot just past the trackout of every corner where I can check my RPMs. If I have entered the corner the same way, but have more RPMs on exit, then it is a faster line, regardless of feel. This method doesn't replace data aquisition, but then again, I haven't been able to look at the computer and race another car at the same time.

A good example was in the toe of the boot at the Glen in my GT3. I used to go down to 2nd because the car would pull really hard off the turn and up the hill. That meant, however, that I had to take a fairly late apex to be able to put the power down, and I had to shift right at trackout on the steepest part of the hill. I started using 3rd, which meant that I could take a little earlier apex to keep my speed up (due to less acceleration), bury the throttle, and drive the car through the turn and up the hill. It felt slower, but it was 300 RPMs faster by the top of the hill.

mitch236

Recently I have come to a similar conclusion and my new mantra is, try to mimimize G-forces. (Don't flame me, it's a mantra...) I can't explain it but those that understand what I am trying to do, get it.

M758

TD...
That is exactly why I said long ago in the CC discussion that you really want to minimize you lateral G's first. That is find the line that minimize the side loads. Only after you have gotten the line right can you try max the G's. Too easy to max the G's in the wrong places be totally hosed.

Once the line is right in you are getting around the track with the lowest G sum. Then need to start pushing harder so that you can max the grip at each corner. My basic approach at a new track is to get around with minimal side loading and min brake/accel (in 944 we already have that min accel thing down ). Once this is done then I can use that line try to carry more and more speed into each corner still trying to keep the g-loading down as much as possible. As you go faster you may need to adjust the line slightly to accont for the needs of the car and for how certain corners may blend together differently at 9/10 vs 7/10. Of course at this point you want ensure you max the G's on the way in and out of most all corners since not doing so is leaving something left on the table.

This entire approach is very much like teaching smoothness. To a noob you focus on smooth smooth smooth inputs.Yet the racers seems to failing about at the wheel. This seems counter to all we teach, but as highlighted in this thread while what is being done looks vastly difference it really is not. However trying to emulate those by flailing about at wheel on you first track day is just plain slow. Same for trying max G's on you first track day. Just plain slow.

p997s123

bump.........

I found this thread extremely informative. I am curious to see if anyone/all of you have some additional info to add. The thread is over 3 years and should be required reading for all.