TD in DC

I agree. I also think many of these techniques are far easier to learn on slower corners than they are on faster corners. I will be going back to Shenandoah Circuit in a couple of weeks, and I personally think that is a fantastic track to practice things like driving the rear wheels. In fact, it comes naturally in many of the corners. That said, it is much easier for me to "drive the rear wheels" on the slower corners than it is for me to do so at, oh, say T10 at Summit Point. The key to learning things like this is not to be an idiot and change everything at once. Nice and gradual adjustments mean that nothing catastrophic will happen if you don't happen to master the technique on your first try

M758

You are correct on that. Heck alot of racers don't do any of that either.

I try to do all of the above, but I don't think I really do it as well as I could.

Disussions like this is one reason I hang out here. We discuss very advanced topics like this and there is enough breath of driver experience to provide valuable input. I remember years ago I went a semiar given by Chris Cervelli. It was a classroom session focus on advanced driving techniques and chassis tuning. He covered in detail trail braking and how a chassis should feel. When I combined this knowledge with the things I was trying on the track I got quite a bit faster.

}{arlequin

seems like it's a built-in training tool. "outriggers not required" LOL

agio

Hmmm, really? Interesting take. With all do respect, I guess I always realized that most people on this board are experienced. But frankly, that wasn't my point. I never previously thought of what 90% of the instructors know or do for that matter. My point was to be helpful by simplifying the entire instruction protocol to begin with and to make the entire experience more effective and safer for all drivers, including you fast ones. You would agree that if the students or even all of the experienced drivers on this board (or even the instructors) have no "sight" plan in place, it really doesn't matter much if they trail brake or not, apex late or early and whether they drive the rear tires or front tires. What the instructor or any other driver is trying to avoid, among other things, is that the next turn becomes an unexpected "adventure" and an unnecessary "surprise."

gman1868

When to Apex???

Whenever you need safety and performance gear:

http://www.apexspg.com

Muahahaha

mitch236

WOW! I was on vacation and missed this great thread! I want to add a couple of thoughts. As one becomes faster, I think (at least for me it was) intuitive to drive the rear. I never really thought about it until I read this thread but it is true. The one point I want to try to make (and it is hard to explain this in person -let alone on a message board) is the thought of a turn being a perfect arc. For me, I try to bend into the arc at turn in and bend out of the arc at track out. At turn in, while I am trailing off the brakes (which I try to need to brake almost all the way to the apex), I am dialing in more steering input as the car transitions from longitudinal to lateral forces. Once at the apex, the opposite occurs. Therefore there is no "turn the wheel and keep it there" for me. I am dialing in more steering input at entry and unwinding the wheel after the apex. If you drew my arc it would probably look like a decreasing radius during entry to just at the apex and then becomming an increasing radius all the way to track out.

I hope this makes sense. This is why I am not a writer!

Rob 97 993c2

Mitch - you are exactly right and well written .. You have said exactly what David Murry was explaining to me at the Glen (see my thread from last week).

I think its harder to transition to this after being told by PCA (since day#1) to brake in a straight line and keep keep the wheel at a constant arc as you power thru turns. While i understand the point intellectually/conceptually, it has thrown off my timing

TD in DC

I am not sure whether my technique is theoretically correct, but I focus nearly exclusively on putting the car where it needs to be at the specific place in a turn rather than on keeping my steering input constant through a corner.

In order to do this, I have to use a combination of steering and pedals, but I do not worry about trying "not" to move my steering inputs once it initially has been set. In many corners, I am more likely to have a decisive turn in, which helps to rotate the car and ensure that I "can" get to the apex. Also, it is easier to open the wheel up than try to tighten it later if I find my aim was a little off . . .

Smoothness of inputs is absolutely irrelevant PROVIDED that the driver is keeping the car smooth. Keeping the car itself smooth is the goal, as it should allow you to go faster. Specifically, if the car is unsettled, or "disturbed" out of balance, then you will exceed the limit at a lower speed than you would otherwise have been able to achieve if you, as the driver, had been able to keep the car smooth.

In fact, keeping the car smooth when driven at the limit will require the driver to use sharp and "non-smooth" inputs, even in a '44. Keeping your inputs smooth and slow would be ridiculous as you approach the limit because you would simply drift or spin off of the track, right?

When I first started learning to drive, I used to wonder why so many great instructors would tell me to do one thing while they did something else. I soon figured out that they were trying to teach me the basics of car control skills, which you must learn before you approach the limits and you are forced to excercise those skills proficiently or go off the track. In other words, if you cannot even control your own inputs at 5/10s (i.e., drive with smooth inputs), how on earth are you going to maintain control of your car at 9/10s? Everyone must learn to crawl before they can walk, and walk before they can run.

Z-man

I dunno Todd - I'm a firm believer in garbage-in / garbage out. IE: if you are jerky and unsmooth at the wheel, your car will also be the same. Unless of course, your suspension is so old and soft that your actions get lost in the sauce.

I think you may be confusing "quick and smooth" with "abrupt and jerky." A good driver will know at turn in if any corrections are necessary to the line. So he makes these adjustments - quickly and smoothly. Sometimes more adjustments may be required, but again, those are done smoothly.

The smoother you are inside the car - and the less jerky your inputs are, the faster the car can go. Trashing a car around a corner may FEEL faster to the driver, and may look cool on tape, but it isn't the fastest way around. The smoother you handle the car, the less work you require of it - the faster it can go.

It truly is like a dance between you and the car. While most people prefer to watch and participate in the 'boody-shakin' form of dancing, it is the ballroom stuff that really requires the talent. Model your driving after a Waltz or a Quickstep - not that clubbin' stuff.

-Z

TD in DC

I don't think you can necessarily tell from video whether a particular input was more aggressive than necessary.

If someone is driving at the limit, and they "feel" the car start to step out so they very quickly countersteer and correct, it could look like they were hacking the wheel on the video, yet anything less would have resulted in a spin.

I guess what I am trying to say is that rapid movements necessary to counteract slips in grip by the car are not "smooth" by any definition, but they may be absolutely what is required to keep the car itself "smooth." So, far from being garbage in, it is elegant and skillful, and far from slow. The video of Senna driving the NSX comes to mind. His throttle and steering inputs were most definitely NOT smooth, but they were precisely what was required. In the video, note how smooth the car looks from the outside and how he is able to keep it well placed despite him driving at the limit. "That" is my goal. I don't drive close enough to the limit that those style inputs are necessary, but someday they will be (hopefully), and I will not be upset that I was unable to maintain a constant steering input through the corner.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...69878817702526

I think that people focus too much on smoothing out their inputs rather than smoothing out the balance of their car. I think this mistake is a big one, and it can lead one to have slow hands (in a bad way) that make you wait a little too long to catch a car that is about to spin. I have been guilty of this myself . . .

SundayDriver

I agree. Think about this - drive the car at no more than 70% of the available grip. That little bit of oil from 3 weekends ago, or that small bump in the corner or that tar bubbling up has almost no impact on the car. You can set the wheel at turn in and hold it. If you take a slightly late apex, as you would at speed, and add power, then you very gradually unwind. Nice smooth inputs and the video will look beautiful. The lap times will suck but the video will be great.

Now if you want to go fast, then who cares about how it looks - we care about lap times, moderated by the need to keep turning good laps for some time (manage the car, tires, etc). But now, at the limit, that little bit of left over oil makes the car slide so you need a correction. The little bumps do the same thing. The inputs are no longer smooth because the track is not perfectly consistent, even IF the driver were prefect.

There are a bunch of smoothness lessons about smooth inputs that make perfect sense for a new DE driver, and all the way up to early advanced stages. But when you are looking for entry speed and mid corner speed, try to take 0.05 seconds out of a corner, then that smooth input stuff is useless. You care about smooth outputs (at the tire) and makeing the quick corrections needed for track incosnsistencies and driver errors.

When a smoot input advocate makes a moderate mistake in a corner, they are slowed way down. When a fast racer makes a moderate mistake, it often costs next to nothing in lap time.

Robert Henriksen

Amen, bro.

mitch236

I actually think we are all talking about the same thing. My inputs may look jerky but I'm sure (at least I hope) I am keeping the contact patch as large as possible while still maintaining the car on the edge of adhesion and staying on the optimal line. However you choose to interpret this, is up to you.

TD in DC

I thought a lot about this thread over the weekend at Shenandoah Circuit. My video from a few laps this last weekend show several places where my inputs were not smooth at all, but they were necessary to keep the car where I wanted it. It frequently looks like I am wiggling the wheel, but I think it is actually where the traction give away for a second (so the wheel turns in to the turn more) and I subsconsciously open it back up again. I don't realize I am doing this while driving, but it shows up in the video (1:12-1:29; 1:35-1:54; 2:24-2:31; 2:48-2:51; 3:00-3:16 and 3:20-3:40). http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...60519344946049 Too bad you can't see my feet, because there are several places where I needed to blip the throttle or manipulate the brakes to get the car rotated.

Another thing I thought about is that in transition turns, the timing of your turn -- if you are driving near the limit -- is determined more by feeling the suspension loadings shift rather than any visual clues or references, right? I mean, even if you "wanted" to turn at a certain point, you would be insane to try to start the turn at that point if your suspension is still loaded from the previous turn. Better to wait until the suspension unloads to turn in, even if it is later than you would have wanted. (see 00:35-00:44 and 2:23-2:30).

Finally, picking up on mitch's comment about the shape of the arc through a corner, I have been turning in earlier and earlier than I did when I first started driving DEs (don't worry, I still have no problem with track out), and I "think" that in high speed turns I have been subconsciously making the apex "long," with the length determined by what I need to make it to track out and, obviously, what the car can take without being pinched. It is not something I conciously think about, but rather I catch myself doing. See the video at 00:45-00:51 and 2:32-2:37, and also the esses at the Glen. Does anybody else do this, or am I just overthinking things (which I enjoy in any event )?

Larry Herman

Grasshopper, it is all about the feel. Those who can't feel the car can never really drive fast. The most difficult part is to get that "feel" to occur at the proper point in the turn so that the car does what you want it to, and drives the line that you need to take. When you can do that, you must leave.