Larry Herman

My GT3 did wonders for that. You either drive the rear tires, or you are slow. Once you set sail for the apex, it doesn't want to know about understeer. It's all about the back. This new car seems to lean a lot harder on the front tires than I'd like; similar to my old Carrera. I'll have to start playing with that when I get to the Glen.

RJay

Hmmm... I suspect in an old 911 like mine, it's pretty hard not to be focusing your attention on the rear tires as the fronts so rarely seem to be in contact with the ground anyway. OTOH, its awfully hard for me to ignore the front of my car as under full throttle its still has a bit of a nasty tendency to try to plow into a wall or guardrail at track out.

Back on the subject of apexes and attitudes. Personally, I find all this angst over the apex to be a bit overblown, not that I don't suffer from it as well while on track. I prefer to try to think of the apex as a peripheral point I'd like to pass through on the way to the track out point, which to my way of thinking is the place to focus my mental attention at turn in. To divide the corner in two segments, one up to the apex point and one after it seems pointless err.. pointfull... ah ya know as opposed to simply sensing the arc of the corner between turn-in and track out with the apex, though critical for defining the arc, as just another point on the curve. It seems to my small talent and equally small brain, that its the attitude and speed of the car at track out thats the most critical bit, and that as Sunday points out, if the primary focus should be on exit speed, this naturally should lead one to try to visualize the car at that point, not at the apex. Of course there are corners where its not physically possible to see track out, most of the Glen is like this for example or the infamous turn (10?) after the uphill esses at VIR which is perhaps where the previous discusson on gonad size comes in.

I suspect that this notion of knowing sooner that your in trouble can be put down to this. If you are focused on the apex and turn in and hit it the mark, you are probably think everything is fine, but in reality there is absolutely no assurance that you'll make track out. If one concentrates on the track out point you get far more early warning as to whether or not you're going to make it or not which allows more time for correction.

Bob Rouleau

Sunday and Larry - I prefer to think that for the first third (roughly) of the turn I am driving the front tires of my GT3, by then I have "set sail" as Larry put it, for the apex. This may involve some minor steering or throttle corrections to get the desired line. After that, I fully agree, I am driving the back of the car. While it is counter-intuitive and takes some courage, getting on the power early makes the rear end dig in and grip like mad. This has always been an advantage of the 911 layout and you sure come out fast! It surprises novices when they feel strong acceleration - often before the apex, when the least expect it. I see it as a balancing act. With the proper entry speed the fronts have grip but the rear is getting floaty, that when I transfer grip to the back with power. I love the feeling.

Best,

Larry Herman

Bob, in my book, that's the way to "git 'er done!"

sww914

Bob, I like what you said about "the feeling." After I learned how to drive on a track, I realized that the balance between steering input and throttle when slipping through a corner felt exactly like the balance between the mainsheet and tiller when flying a hull on a fast catamaran. If anyone else has sailed alot and raced, did you notice it too?
Steve

SundayDriver

That idea of driving the rears came from two different, high level professionals that I got coaching from and it works for me, so take it any way that works for you or what makes you faster or more comfortable...

What you are describing is exactly how they decribed the second stage of speed - exit speed. You get exit speed from driving the rear tires out of the corner. Novices move from little slip and always driving the fronts to starting to feel the rears as we progress. Driving the fronts into the corner is certainly more comfortable and much safer, given th DE environment which is where most of the folks here run.

BUT, if you want to move to the thrid step and begin to maximize entry speed, where the danger increases but so do the speeds, you might try what was passed on to me from those coaches.

Larry Herman

Well Mark, you just convinced me. I felt that this car had a little too much understeer, but I was going to wait until the Glen for confirmation. Now I'm headed out to the garage to soften the front swaybar.

TD in DC

Mark,

That last explanation was helpful. Let me put it in my own words and let me know if I am getting it.

When we start track driving, most of us focus on using the front wheels to turn the car, so we pay attention to the traction at the front of the car. When we get any understeer, we back off the gas, slow down, get more traction, and continue. This is safe, intuitive, but slow. In fact, many of the mistakes we make as newbies make the problem worse because our inputs can induce understeer sooner than if we were driving better.

You are saying that it is far faster to drive the back of the car. In other words, to rotate the car by managing slip angle and oversteer, which is far faster because you must get on the gas to stop the rotation rather than get off the gas to stop the understeer. So, the moral of the story is to focus on rotating the car through good management of rear wheel traction more than focusing on the traction at the front of the car (which should take care of itself under most circumstances anyway).

This has started to come naturally to me as I have picked up corner entry speed and started subconscously trailbraking more. In some ways, it is actually easier to rotate the rear of the car (point) and get on the gas (shoot) than it is to drive the front of the car.

Thanks!

SundayDriver

Todd,

You are getting it! Now you have to temper this with the car setup. If you can make a car a little tail happy in the slow stuff, this is going to work great. If it always psuhes, it becomes harder to drive the back end.

What is not all that intuitive is drving the rear tires at corner entry. You would think that the fronts are where your focus should be as they are doing the work. However, if the car is going to get lost tail first, that is the limiting end. Under braking and turn in (especially with some trail braking) the rear is going to want to spin so by focusing on the rear tires, you are taking it to the edge.

And, of course, you never lose awareness of the front or anything else going on. It is a matter of what your primary thought is. Hope this helps.

RedlineMan

Holy Shorts!

This thread should be required reading!!!

Now, as I sat there reading along, I first agreed with what Todd's instructor said about entry speed. Then I also agreed with Larry's debunking of that statement she made. I finished up by agreeing with Mark's utter dissmissal of what she said. How can I agree with all? Because they all contain pieces of the truth.

The lady instructor was right, in a very general sense. If you can floor the throttle, you must not have been on that magic sliver just past the max slip angle to start with, and you therefore were leaving something on the table... somewhere

Of course Larry was then correct in bringing up trail braking, for it is the only way to stay on that fine edge if you HAVE entered with uber velocity. She is not dealing with TB because it is rightly not stressed in PCA for beginning drivers.

Then Mark really cuts into her on the basis of relative skills. Mark, you are far above most of for sure, I feel I can safely say. Scale it back to our level, and the level of instruction that most of us can make use of, (that if I may, Todd can make use of) and she is quite correct, if in a rather general and ultimately limited fashion. Your nugget of wisdom was that it is quite corner specific.

Each offering ups the ante, from basic, to more enlightened, to advanced. Add in the "driving the rear tires" notion, and you have a naturally progressing model to work from. Somewhere in the mix of these three offerings is where I find myself. I likely have a lot of company in the ranks of adavnced PCA DE drivers. The last slivers of time are to be found BEFORE the apex, with exit speed increased from there if one can manage everything properly.

The comments regrading Schumacher's driving remind of the data charts in that TV documentary program on he -vs- Herbert at some track or other. Schumi's steering charts looked utterly insane pre-apex. Simply massive sawing. Of course, so too were his entry speeds. Funny how, while the top speeds were similar, his lap times were better!

Finally, add in Z-man's brilliant spin on it being "more analog than digital," and you have the good sense to temper all the theory. Didn't we all try and convince ColorChange of this analog idea for so long? He just didn't get it.

Maybe that is why Analog Mike is so quick?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Reporting Live from Brockville, Ont.

Robert Henriksen

brucegre

Well, I think Mark just cuts to the gospel faster than the rest of us (the apex, too). If you look at at what the instructor said, and then at what we're saying (since I'm firmly in the camp of get to the power as soon as you can, and drive the rears), the way to resolve it is that the apex of the corner is, by definition, the point where you transition to accelerating. On a lot of the corners at Mosport and Tremblant, that puts the apex somewhere in the middle of the track well before the "apex" turtles (T11 at Tremblant is a great example). It is, most definitely corner specific, there are corners like T3 at Mosport that require huge patience, usually more than I have, but balancing the throttle to the apex as dogma is pretty regressive as a driving technique.

Brockville? John, if you're around on the weekend, we're racing the Cup car and the Diasio down at Shannonville, Friday to Sunday, bring Tina down and say hi!

Bruce

pedsurg

Ross Bentley was mentioned earlier in this thread. Due to the rave reviews of his presentations to various PCA groups discussed on these boards, I purchased most (5 or 6) of his "Speed Secret" books. The books are inexpensive, readily available and nicely explain and amplfy topics discussed in this and other Rennlist threads. I appreciate the Rennlisters recomendation that we study this series and second their recommendation. His dissection of the "exit phase" (chapter 7), "entry phase" (chapter 8) and "mid-corner phase" (chapter 8) in in Speed Secrets 2 nicely supplements this discusion.

Jack

agio

For my students, the entire process of getting around the track is far simpler. Clearly, there are many fine points covered in this thread, virtually all of them correct. But I do take notice of the experience of the student. A novice will not likely "get" the finer points discussed around the braking and turning of the very experienced drivers. I like the front wheels v. rear wheels discussion and this makes a great deal of sense for the experienced driver. The very inexperienced drivers first need to have vision (I was recently reminded to promote this element first) of the track. Ocular driving will bring about a more competent driver more quickly...whether getting onto the front straight, coming off of one, or going through a compound turn.
If the driver can "see" well out in front, his/her chances to efficiently and successfully negotiate around the track (virtually any track) will make most other elements fall into place--more quickly and more safely.
just my .02

38D

I don't think any of this thread is aimed at the novice driver. Heck, 90% of instructors out there don't trail brake, apex late, and don't drive the rear tires.