Larry Herman

Steve, I have to agree with Colin on that point. I don't think that the abilities of a senior instructor are best served pounding around in a green student's car. Unless there are mitigating circumstances, like a first timer in a GT3, the basics can be adequately handled by the newer instructors. More advanced Blue drivers, and White drivers requesting instructors, need the developed abilities and experiences that the long time instructors have accrued.

As a senior instructor, I prefer to work with more advanced drivers. I enjoy the challenge in working on more advanced techniques and do not normally feel uncomfortable with the inherent risks in going faster. I also feel that my experience helps me to control those drivers who are overly aggressive, and reduce that risk. Then again, I could be rationallizing.

smankow

Larry, with your description, I think that I'd agree with you. Within RTR we are lucky to have so many great instructors.

Hopefully, I'll have the opportunity to either have you in my car or ride with you to help me improve.


Steve

bobt993

As a senior instructor, I prefer to work with more advanced drivers. I enjoy the challenge in working on more advanced techniques and do not normally feel uncomfortable with the inherent risks in going faster. I also feel that my experience helps me to control those drivers who are overly aggressive, and reduce that risk. Then again, I could be rationallizing.[/QUOTE]

Okay Larry, send me your disfunctional students at the next event. I actually agree with you and have sent you several white/black group drivers to help straighten out. And you did. I hope this continues and I think new instructors should be relegated to green students.

Hey Larry one thought on the run group size(s). I actually had the most fun in the Red/black rain sessions on Sunday with about 30plus cars on Pocono North. I counted 8 cars (plus my own) between T3 & T4 at one point. Talk about wheel to wheel. Do you think it is reasonable to allow more cars on the track in the advanced run groups? I welcome it.

Phokaioglaukos

Hey, I resembled that remark!

I've had senior instructors and junior instructors, some of each who drive GT3s (yes, there are junior instructors who drive a GT3). It's a real benefit to drive with someone who knows my car, but it's much more a benefit to drive with someone who not only drives well but teaches well. Those are two different, if related, skills, and both require practice and training.

Larry's point, as I understand it, is that in a high HP car one can get into trouble faster than in a low HP car and that an experienced isntructor can see trouble coming from farther back and help the student correct before it's too late. I think that is right. I also think that there is a great deal that a junior instructor can teach a new driver, much that would be the same were the instructor more senior.

I think our region does a pretty good job of matching up drivers at different stages of development with suitable instructors. I'm not sure how they do it other than by informal discussion, but they seem to do it pretty well. We used to have private report cards that only instructors see and PCA logbooks that instructors and students see. Now we just have the logbooks. That cannot be as good a system for sharing information among instructors.....

kurt M

Personally I think it is important to have a good, experenced, well informed instructor for 0.0 Green students. You have a student with little or no idea of any of the many things that are about to come rushing at them on track. He or she might also have preconceived ideas that are counter to what is best. Situation loading tunnel vision is common for first timers at most any complex activity.
For best results I would say that this is not the place for a noo-b instructor. He or she has to be teaching as well as fully heads up for even little things to compensate for the students lack. New instructors might be better suited to advanced green and Blue students where there still is a good experience gap and the student has some track heads up awareness. The race oriented instructor might not be the right guy either. Not just a waste of high order information but unless he tailors his information to the student a poor information or training fit as well. This is the case with any instructor regardless of how fast he is or what he drives. An instructor with knowledge and experience in starting 0.0 or early Green students off is best.
I do think that there should be further training for instructors tailored to the needs of Green students. How we handle a student from day one is part of the foundation for how the student looks at all future learning.

renvagn

I second the the 4 20-25 minute sessions per day. I was recently at an event where 3 30-35 minute sessions were run and had a 3 hour wait between runs, which left me running for coffee. In the future I will not attend events that only have three per day.

RedlineMan

I couldn't dissagree more.

Instructors don't have time to explain theory. Everybody's theories are a bit different, so there's no consistency either. If they are explaining theory they are lousy instructors because the student's mind is mush behind the wheel. Input overload. If they get theory in a controlled, relaxed atmosphere like a classroom, some of it will stick. When they get behind the wheel, the instructor takes what they heard in class, tells them when and where in very conscise terms, and brings it to reality. Then the theory and action meld together. Blink. Light comes on.

Doing a DE like Niagara at the Glen with Jim Tulloch in the classroom is a dream. Lights come on very quickly there!

Couldn't agree MORE. You da man, Prof.

penguinking

in any case, my point was that there is an area of DE that i think more emphasis should be placed on - that is, the importance of proper setup and tech. just because you have a brand new car doesn't mean you can forego a thorough tech inspection

38D

I'm with John on this one. Classroom session can be useful for new student (or even advanced ones). The key is to have a good teacher. BobbyC was just at the Chin event, and I know he really liked the classroom sessions.

penguinking

i guess i need to sit in a really "good" class session. problem is, most schools i go to the classes are more beginner designed rather than advanced.

JoelG

an alternative to a track walk is to pile everyone into a bunch of pickup trucks and drive from corner to corner. At each corner everyone jumps out, the "walk" leader points things out, have a discussion, pack in again and off to the next corner. You could probably do sebring in 1/2 hour.

Larry Herman

Our region has group specific classrooms with Green, Blue and White having their own agendas. Works out quite well, and the classroom time with the White (intermediate) drivers is really well received.

RedlineMan

Now, there I agree with you!

Regarding the former: In my case, when I do tech inspections for folks, I have two standards. If it is someone I know who is on top of things, they get the cursory look-see just to make sure they haven't overlooked something obvious. Basically lick & stick inpection. They know that I expect them to have done it already, and they have. If it is someone I know to be clueless, I pay more attention. These two are the PCA freebies. If it is someone I don't know at all, I make it clear that they will pay me to put the car in the air and have a THOROUGH look-see. I've found some pretty shocking stuff...

Regarding the latter: It is a big committment by a region to do ANY kind of classroom, especially the kind of classes that Larry talks about, and I applaud them for it!

Boulder GT3

I ask this not as rhetorical question. Is there some reason or has there been some series of incidents that are causing this interest in more rules? Some of the PCA events I've been to are already bordering on a ridiculous group of mother hens running around. I've had the numbers on the side of my car measured for God's sake. Yes they were "legal" and no this isn't the 24 hours of LeMans.

I think NASA is doing a better job at putting on fun and safe DE type events. Huge amounts of common sense applied. If you suck, don't want to learn, or are unsafe you're out. "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

BobbyC

Take a leaf from the Chin Motorsports book on how to run a class DE event.

(No, this is not a plug for Chin and I have no affiliation other than a very satisfied DE participant. Most recently at the Glen.)

Here's what they do right...

1) Plenty of track time - one can essentially run all day until tired.

2) No work assignments - provides time to rest, work on car, etc.

3) Classroom Training - 2 sessions daily for the instructed run group.

4) Safety - a lot of emphasis on safety and courtesy on the track. It works.

5) Food - Breakfast, beverages, catered lunch. Good times.

Sure they charge a bit more than the average PCA event, but I think it's a class act. I will certainly participate in future Chin events.