Suggestions for Improving Driver's Ed
05-23-2006, 03:06 PM
#16
Race Director
I did this once with NASA Az I believe.
All instructors lined up in the pits first thing in the AM and in OUR cars we took our student around the track no helmets at parade speed or slower for 2 laps or so. Intent was tell the student in a calm non-intimdating format how to get around the course. It seemed to work well, but was hard to pull of logistically with the time needed.
All instructors lined up in the pits first thing in the AM and in OUR cars we took our student around the track no helmets at parade speed or slower for 2 laps or so. Intent was tell the student in a calm non-intimdating format how to get around the course. It seemed to work well, but was hard to pull of logistically with the time needed.
05-23-2006, 03:33 PM
#17
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
I have mixed emotions about responding to this one for a while. Most of your points make a lot of sense. For example, point 2 -- but as others have suggested, this should be controlled by the instructor. From my experience, some of the most unexpected instructors have student speed limits and other instructors push their students beyond the students limits, sometimes with predictable, but unexpected consequences.
Items 3, 4, and 5 are part of our program, particularly with regard to the separation of Red and Black Run groups. This does not always work out when you have two instructors sharing a car. Can't divide the lower run groups like this, not enough track experience. Like combining Blue and Green a high time Blue student in a 'slow' car may be way faster then a novice in a Twin Turbo.
Item 1 is troubling to me -- the idea of a roll-bar/roll-cage in a street car. From my experience the likely hood of rolling over at a DE is a low percentage event; while the likelihood of being rear-ended on the street is a relatively high percentage event. I have closely examined the Brey-Krause device in my Boxster. In my opinion, this device compromises safety for normal street driving, but it is required by our region and by certain tracks like VIR. Most folks do not remove the Brey-Krause for normal driving. Neither do they wear their helmet to and from the track.
In earlier years, I often drove my car SCCA car on the street with full cage. This is clearly not a good idea.
Items 3, 4, and 5 are part of our program, particularly with regard to the separation of Red and Black Run groups. This does not always work out when you have two instructors sharing a car. Can't divide the lower run groups like this, not enough track experience. Like combining Blue and Green a high time Blue student in a 'slow' car may be way faster then a novice in a Twin Turbo.
Item 1 is troubling to me -- the idea of a roll-bar/roll-cage in a street car. From my experience the likely hood of rolling over at a DE is a low percentage event; while the likelihood of being rear-ended on the street is a relatively high percentage event. I have closely examined the Brey-Krause device in my Boxster. In my opinion, this device compromises safety for normal street driving, but it is required by our region and by certain tracks like VIR. Most folks do not remove the Brey-Krause for normal driving. Neither do they wear their helmet to and from the track.
In earlier years, I often drove my car SCCA car on the street with full cage. This is clearly not a good idea.
Last edited by Alan Herod; 05-23-2006 at 03:49 PM.
05-23-2006, 04:34 PM
#18
Pro
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hatboro, PA
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also agree that too many rules will eventually take away from the learning process in DE. That said, I do believe that certain rules should be in place. Specifically, you must have a seat with proper holes if using 5/6 point harnesses.
I also agree that the in-car instructor must control the run and base the control on the level of the student. In advancing through run groups the speeds really start to pick up. How can a student moving from green to blue be expected to handle the increased speed if they have been reined in for all of their events? Within RTR, our instructors gradually release the reins each session if and only if the student is comfortable with the increases because things happen at great speeds that require much greater awareness and reactions.
Steve
I also agree that the in-car instructor must control the run and base the control on the level of the student. In advancing through run groups the speeds really start to pick up. How can a student moving from green to blue be expected to handle the increased speed if they have been reined in for all of their events? Within RTR, our instructors gradually release the reins each session if and only if the student is comfortable with the increases because things happen at great speeds that require much greater awareness and reactions.
Steve
05-23-2006, 04:43 PM
#19
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by BrianKeithSmith
I like #5, I think the best thing would be to have some sort of track walk at lunch for all Green and Blue students. Do it during lunch. Go to a corner and say "how fast do you think you can go through this corner", and then tell him sort of what the real limit is for most average cars.
Its hard to fit that into the schedule, but most of the time there is an hour for lunch and you can accomplish ALOT in an hour with a track walk/tour.
Brian
Its hard to fit that into the schedule, but most of the time there is an hour for lunch and you can accomplish ALOT in an hour with a track walk/tour.
Brian
I like what Brian said but think walk might be little too much (Sebring is 3.7 miles and walking it through as a group while talking would probably take 1-2 hours...) but in our region there is couple of "parade" laps for those who are first time at that particular track or otherwise very "green". It's two or three laps with very slow speed while discussing with instructor.
I did it last time at Sebring and my student (even thugh he had been there before) really appreciated it. We followed the correct line, braking points, I though him not to "shuffle steer" etc. Since it was slow speed, there was much more time to take it all in.
05-23-2006, 06:55 PM
#21
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the responses. I like the idea of limiting tires to street or DOT approved until a student reaches a certain level of proficiency.
Number 1 wasn't meant to be a hard number - it could be 600hp, but at some point the car has tremendous capability for creating problems in the hands of an inexperienced driver. The problem is that I am not sure that inexperienced driver can even understand the risk it poses unleashed in an unrestricted environment.
When I read through some of the other forums on Rennlist and 6Speed, there is so much focus on engine mods and almost nothing related to a coincident changes in brakes, suspension or safety equipment to accommodate the additional power.
Now, John makes a good point I had not considered: what may be good for track may not be appropriate for street (e.g. roll cage). I think a roll bar is still appropriate and Porsche now sells the bolt in bar for most modern cars, so I am thinking they don't see a problem there. The harnesses are not intended to be a replacement for a 3-point OEM belts if the driver feels they are safer. It is possible to have both in a car.
If people absolutely reject this idea, you will notice in #2, I suggested a speed limit could be substituted for the safety equipment described in #1. The point is to keep the cars under control going into braking zones.
Finally, I hope people don't see these as rules I want to bring to DE. At best they are just my suggestions to consider as your group puts together its DE.
Number 1 wasn't meant to be a hard number - it could be 600hp, but at some point the car has tremendous capability for creating problems in the hands of an inexperienced driver. The problem is that I am not sure that inexperienced driver can even understand the risk it poses unleashed in an unrestricted environment.
When I read through some of the other forums on Rennlist and 6Speed, there is so much focus on engine mods and almost nothing related to a coincident changes in brakes, suspension or safety equipment to accommodate the additional power.
Now, John makes a good point I had not considered: what may be good for track may not be appropriate for street (e.g. roll cage). I think a roll bar is still appropriate and Porsche now sells the bolt in bar for most modern cars, so I am thinking they don't see a problem there. The harnesses are not intended to be a replacement for a 3-point OEM belts if the driver feels they are safer. It is possible to have both in a car.
If people absolutely reject this idea, you will notice in #2, I suggested a speed limit could be substituted for the safety equipment described in #1. The point is to keep the cars under control going into braking zones.
Finally, I hope people don't see these as rules I want to bring to DE. At best they are just my suggestions to consider as your group puts together its DE.
05-23-2006, 07:36 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by JBH
Thanks for all the responses. I like the idea of limiting tires to street or DOT approved until a student reaches a certain level of proficiency.
Number 1 wasn't meant to be a hard number - it could be 600hp, but at some point the car has tremendous capability for creating problems in the hands of an inexperienced driver. The problem is that I am not sure that inexperienced driver can even understand the risk it poses unleashed in an unrestricted environment.
When I read through some of the other forums on Rennlist and 6Speed, there is so much focus on engine mods and almost nothing related to a coincident changes in brakes, suspension or safety equipment to accommodate the additional power.
Now, John makes a good point I had not considered: what may be good for track may not be appropriate for street (e.g. roll cage). I think a roll bar is still appropriate and Porsche now sells the bolt in bar for most modern cars, so I am thinking they don't see a problem there. The harnesses are not intended to be a replacement for a 3-point OEM belts if the driver feels they are safer. It is possible to have both in a car.
If people absolutely reject this idea, you will notice in #2, I suggested a speed limit could be substituted for the safety equipment described in #1. The point is to keep the cars under control going into braking zones.
Finally, I hope people don't see these as rules I want to bring to DE. At best they are just my suggestions to consider as your group puts together its DE.
Number 1 wasn't meant to be a hard number - it could be 600hp, but at some point the car has tremendous capability for creating problems in the hands of an inexperienced driver. The problem is that I am not sure that inexperienced driver can even understand the risk it poses unleashed in an unrestricted environment.
When I read through some of the other forums on Rennlist and 6Speed, there is so much focus on engine mods and almost nothing related to a coincident changes in brakes, suspension or safety equipment to accommodate the additional power.
Now, John makes a good point I had not considered: what may be good for track may not be appropriate for street (e.g. roll cage). I think a roll bar is still appropriate and Porsche now sells the bolt in bar for most modern cars, so I am thinking they don't see a problem there. The harnesses are not intended to be a replacement for a 3-point OEM belts if the driver feels they are safer. It is possible to have both in a car.
If people absolutely reject this idea, you will notice in #2, I suggested a speed limit could be substituted for the safety equipment described in #1. The point is to keep the cars under control going into braking zones.
Finally, I hope people don't see these as rules I want to bring to DE. At best they are just my suggestions to consider as your group puts together its DE.
"The nut in the right seat is the primary safety equipment. The best setup to work with is well trained, informed, enabled, dedicated instructors that want to teach and students that have the right goals and attitudes going in. Ongoing instructor training and good pre track preparation of students should be standard with all DE programs. Teaching in DE is more than something to do when you are not on track or to hook the run group slot you desire. As instructors we all need to look beyond driver training and at people training too. One thing I have yet to see mentioned is ongoing instructor training. How about an instructor classroom time at each event? First 1/2 iof classroom time is a training module and the second half is disection of real world events and instruction based issues with group feedback.
I have had good weekends instructing 0.0 student high HP cars and have had lumpy pants weekends in 0.0 low HP cars. The two humans and the communication and control maintenance by the instructor is KEY. It is not the cars it is the people.
__________________
Ich Strample So Schnell Ich Can! "
05-23-2006, 07:44 PM
#23
Pro
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SoCal
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shall we open up the discussion re 3 point belts vs multi-point (4,5,6,7) belts vis -a-vis head and neck restraints?
BTW, I disagree somewhat about a blanket statement that driving on the streets with a cage is bad. It depends upon the proximity of the cage elements to the occupant and type/amount/location of padding on the cage. Remember, the stock car interior, although padded to a certain extent, is fraught with hard and sometimes sharp things to bash into in a crash.
I think a further separation of "capabilitiy classes" would be to distinguish those that have been on the specific track before and know the line vs those that have never been on the specific track or do not know the line. That would enable instructors to concentrate on either track line related things such as braking points, turn-in points, apex selection or driver technique stuff like braking, transition to throttle, steering and hand movement, downshifting, etc.
Bro
BTW, I disagree somewhat about a blanket statement that driving on the streets with a cage is bad. It depends upon the proximity of the cage elements to the occupant and type/amount/location of padding on the cage. Remember, the stock car interior, although padded to a certain extent, is fraught with hard and sometimes sharp things to bash into in a crash.
I think a further separation of "capabilitiy classes" would be to distinguish those that have been on the specific track before and know the line vs those that have never been on the specific track or do not know the line. That would enable instructors to concentrate on either track line related things such as braking points, turn-in points, apex selection or driver technique stuff like braking, transition to throttle, steering and hand movement, downshifting, etc.
Bro
05-23-2006, 08:08 PM
#24
Boy, I hesitate to make any suggestions here since I run solely with PCA, and everytime I do, someone says "great idea, now get to it!" 
Whenever you have a potentially dangerous activity, it is human nature to think of a bunch of rules that ostensibly would make it safer. I think this is, for the most part, a mistake. The best way to keep DEs safe and, very importantly, ENJOYABLE, is to rely on common sense and good judgment. Specifically, rather than adopting a bunch of inflexible rules, or worse yet, rules that everyone routinely breaks, we should (1) make sure the DE Chief invites only those with good judgment to become instructors (this suggestion alone might well suggest that I am not fit for I-corps ); (2) train the instructors very well; and (3) trust your instructors.
One green student in a 600HP car may be a terrific student, while the jerkoff in the 150 HP 944 might be dangerous as all get out. Likewise, a student who spins once a weekend, but learns from his mistakes and continues to get better might be far less of a concern than the student who has never spun but has horrible track awareness or simply a bad attitude. The instructor is the best person to observe what is really going on and make that call. Perhaps they could provide a very brief summary of good habits/bad habits/overall impressions to the DE chief so that a better picture of the student can develop over time. Maybe this already happens, I am not sure.
With respect to driver's meetings, I think it would be great to make them more interesting (I think our region does a great job, so I don't mean this as criticism). Of course, there are pieces of information that must get repeated every time (e.g., flags, passing zones, emphasis of the role of student and instructor, schedule, etc. . . ), but the instructional meetings should perhaps cover specific issues and be different every time. You might even be able to give people advance notice of the theme. If you make the meetings interesting and different, people hopefully will not feel like they are wasting their time. You maybe could even do the same thing with instructors, but you would need to make the discussion different each time in order to keep it interesting.
I love how easy it is to make everything better from the peanut gallery
Whenever you have a potentially dangerous activity, it is human nature to think of a bunch of rules that ostensibly would make it safer. I think this is, for the most part, a mistake. The best way to keep DEs safe and, very importantly, ENJOYABLE, is to rely on common sense and good judgment. Specifically, rather than adopting a bunch of inflexible rules, or worse yet, rules that everyone routinely breaks, we should (1) make sure the DE Chief invites only those with good judgment to become instructors (this suggestion alone might well suggest that I am not fit for I-corps
); (2) train the instructors very well; and (3) trust your instructors.One green student in a 600HP car may be a terrific student, while the jerkoff in the 150 HP 944 might be dangerous as all get out. Likewise, a student who spins once a weekend, but learns from his mistakes and continues to get better might be far less of a concern than the student who has never spun but has horrible track awareness or simply a bad attitude. The instructor is the best person to observe what is really going on and make that call. Perhaps they could provide a very brief summary of good habits/bad habits/overall impressions to the DE chief so that a better picture of the student can develop over time. Maybe this already happens, I am not sure.
With respect to driver's meetings, I think it would be great to make them more interesting (I think our region does a great job, so I don't mean this as criticism). Of course, there are pieces of information that must get repeated every time (e.g., flags, passing zones, emphasis of the role of student and instructor, schedule, etc. . . ), but the instructional meetings should perhaps cover specific issues and be different every time. You might even be able to give people advance notice of the theme. If you make the meetings interesting and different, people hopefully will not feel like they are wasting their time. You maybe could even do the same thing with instructors, but you would need to make the discussion different each time in order to keep it interesting.
I love how easy it is to make everything better from the peanut gallery
05-24-2006, 12:48 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by TD in DC
while the jerkoff in the 150 HP 944 might be dangerous as all get out.
Originally Posted by TD in DC
Likewise, a student who spins once a weekend, but learns from his mistakes and continues to get better might be far less of a concern than the student who has never spun but has horrible track awareness or simply a bad attitude.
My suggestions to improve DE:
1) Have different levels of instructors: basic, advanced & master (or something like that). Basic instructors should just be for new students. To get in a yellow/white car, the person should be more advanced. To be a master/Chief, I think the person must be both a great instructor and fast. They probably also really need to have racing experience (how can a chief that has never raced possibly sign off on a rookie PCA club racing application?).
2) Run group assignment is not a right it is a privlidge. There a a ton of people tooling around in red, black & white that need to get moved down. Just because you've been doing something for 20 years doesn't mean you are any good at it. Red should be for people that are fast and and highly experienced.
3) Instrcutors effectively do get paid with reduced entries. If an instructor is late to pick up a student, the instructor should be charged a fee. There should also be the ability for instructor level drivers to pay a normal entry fee & not have to instruct.
05-24-2006, 01:15 PM
#27
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 38D
1) Have different levels of instructors: basic, advanced & master (or something like that). Basic instructors should just be for new students. To get in a yellow/white car, the person should be more advanced. To be a master/Chief, I think the person must be both a great instructor and fast. They probably also really need to have racing experience (how can a chief that has never raced possibly sign off on a rookie PCA club racing application?).
I haven't been to a Summit Point Friday At The Track in ages, but that was a totally different story - self-assignment by instructors, take what you get (from both a student and instructor perspective).
Ranking and matching are important, but teaching is a pretty personal skill. I think appropriate use of instructors should be built into the organization and process rather than through rules.
05-24-2006, 01:22 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by 38D
2) Run group assignment is not a right it is a privlidge. There a a ton of people tooling around in red, black & white that need to get moved down. Just because you've been doing something for 20 years doesn't mean you are any good at it. Red should be for people that are fast and and highly experienced.
.
Recall that the club has to have a certain number of participants to keep the rates low or at least "steady". If you bring people down from red/black into white, then then you have less people in Red/Black to foot the bill for the track rental. Then you run a partial field in the upper run groups while everyone else stands around waiting to go. In our region, Red/black are the instructors. What happens when you bump them down? Less students to foot the bill for the track. Ultimately, the whole thing becomes too expensive per person.
05-24-2006, 01:35 PM
#29
Pro
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hatboro, PA
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd like to comment about 38D's comment #1.
You are suggesting that the new instructors get new students. I don't necessarily feel that that serves the best interest of everyone. The new instructors are still trying to "find" their styles and might not be the best to instruct the total newbies. I would think that the new students should have the same access to the "advanced" instructors as all other students. Other items, such as car, age, etc. should also factor into the assignments.
In addition, the students should go into an event to learn whatever they can from any instructor who gets into their car and with whom they take a ride with. Like many others, I've had events where I had a different instructor each day and rather than let it bother me, I decided to learn everything from each instructor that I could - both from the left seat and right seat. During many sessions now (uninstructed group), I still "hear" many of these instructors in my head when certain situations, passes, etc. occur. And I'm thankful for their input in making me a better driver - on and off track.
Ultimately, we all need to remember that this is drivers education not racing.
Steve
You are suggesting that the new instructors get new students. I don't necessarily feel that that serves the best interest of everyone. The new instructors are still trying to "find" their styles and might not be the best to instruct the total newbies. I would think that the new students should have the same access to the "advanced" instructors as all other students. Other items, such as car, age, etc. should also factor into the assignments.
In addition, the students should go into an event to learn whatever they can from any instructor who gets into their car and with whom they take a ride with. Like many others, I've had events where I had a different instructor each day and rather than let it bother me, I decided to learn everything from each instructor that I could - both from the left seat and right seat. During many sessions now (uninstructed group), I still "hear" many of these instructors in my head when certain situations, passes, etc. occur. And I'm thankful for their input in making me a better driver - on and off track.
Ultimately, we all need to remember that this is drivers education not racing.
Steve
05-24-2006, 01:45 PM
#30
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mount Prospect, IL
Posts: 4,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
so after reading all of this I like 2 main points for improvement
1) be well organized and ON Time with the schedule
2) keep the run groups limited to # of cars
I'm not sure about you but I prefer 20 minute sessions to 30 minute or 15 minute (15 minute is too short IMHO and 30 minute too long and hard on me and the car)... but that might just be me... but I'd rather have 4 20 minute sessions in a day than 3 30 minute sessions...
1) be well organized and ON Time with the schedule
2) keep the run groups limited to # of cars
I'm not sure about you but I prefer 20 minute sessions to 30 minute or 15 minute (15 minute is too short IMHO and 30 minute too long and hard on me and the car)... but that might just be me... but I'd rather have 4 20 minute sessions in a day than 3 30 minute sessions...