JPhillips-998

Surprising but this is the latest news I could find...from an article January 9.

Chad McQueen Resting in Daytona Beach Following Successful Surgery on Saturday Night

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. (January 9, 2006) -- No. 73 Tafel Racing Porsche GT3 driver Chad McQueen is resting at a Daytona Beach-area hospital after successful surgery on Saturday evening for injuries he sustained in a crash during Saturday's morning session of the Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series presented by Crown Royal Special Reserve Daytona Test Days.

The 45-year-old McQueen suffered a broken lower left leg, as well as a pair of fractures to his vertebrae and multiple rib fractures after making contact with the barrier exiting the chicane at the end of the Daytona International Speedway Superstretch. McQueen is listed in serious but stable condition, and a full recovery is expected.

Greg Fishman

Life insurance does not ask about DE events in my experience, it may ask about racing and charge a higher premium for a risky hobby. Even if you didn't race when you took out a policy, it would have to cover you, even if you now are racing.

If you are actively engaged in a risky sport (racing, skydiving, etc) and do not disclose that (at the time of application), your coverage would be adjusted, in the event of your death.

JPhillips-998

Greg, are you saying that we should be telling our life ins. companies that we race and if we don't they will adjust any coverage that we have?

shiners780

Danger is defined as exposure to injury or loss. By driving out onto the track, are we exposing ourselves to injury or loss? Since the possibility exists, then the answer is yes. DE's are dangerous to the point of being exposed to injury or loss. Of course, without knowing the level of danger using statistics, then we can't say that DE's are any more dangerous than walking down the sidewalk. Dangerous, yes, but how dangerous would depend upon the probability of injury or loss occurring. The only way to determine that probability is if we have a compilation of data from past DE's, including number of participants, injuries (defined by severity), and damage reports. This past weekend, I requested this information from a member of the PCA National Board. I will be sure to post this information (with permission) if it becomes available to me.

I also think that it is important to make a clear distinction between DE's and Racing, as there are many factors in Racing that will increase the likelihood of injury or loss.

Greg Fishman

No, sorry for the confusion. If you have a policy that was taken out before you started racing you don't need to do anything.

If you are racing and you take out a new life insurance plan without disclosing that information your policy could be subject to an adjustment or be rescinded if in the first two years of the contract.
As always it is best not to lie to an insurance company.

Gator_86_951

Statistically not very dangerous. Also, like everybody else has said, the events that do happen get magnified so much because of the inner-net.

Jim Child

You asked for stats. I don't have any stats, but I can make some up with a few assumptions

Without trying too hard, I counted 45 tracks that host DE's and Club racing events. You might be able to count more. Lets assume that each track hosts 15 DE and Club race weekend per year. This is a very conservative assumption based on looking at the Mid Ohio and Putnam Park schedules. Feel free to substitute a larger number of events per track if you like. That comes out to 675 DE/Club races per year. Lets now assume that there are an average of 125 cars per event. Again, I think that's a conservative assumption, and you can bump up the number if you want. That comes to 84,375 participants per year (some of these are the same people participating multiple times, but that's irrelevant in this analysis).

Now, I think we agree that deaths in DE's and Club Races are very well publicized. When they happen, we hear about them. I heard of 4 last year, the three you mentioned, plus one at a BMW Club race at NHIS. If we assume there were no more than that, then that's 4 out of 84,375, or .0047%. That means that every time you go to an event you have a 99.9953% chance of survival. That sounds pretty safe to me.

mitch236

My wife and I have had this discussion before. I have two daughters (2 and 4y/o). I think if you first try to see it from her point of view and tell her that you completely understand her and agree with her fears, she will be more likely to "hear" the rest of the discussion. Tell her you choose the clubs you run with based on their safety record and standards. Tell her you choose which tracks you run at based on the relative safety of their facility. Tell her you want to become an instructor so you will then be running with the most experienced, safe drivers at the event. Tell her (as you have) that you will take every precaution possible to avoid injury. Tell her you will skip the final run session of each day because that is when most incidents occur (I don't know if this is true, it just sounds logical).

Be compassionate about her concern. She obviously cares about you and that is a good thing. Remember, you don't have to convince her in one try. This is a long term project. Try not to loose your temper.

Bob Rouleau

My 2 cents. I consider a well run DE event to be a low risk activity. Note the emphasis on "well run". Racing is another matter. I make a firm distinction here since some in this thread seem to lump them together. Some DR events are more like racing than Driver Education and that's a risk factor.

Looking at statistics from my region since I became CI, we have had zero injuries in spite of over 12,000 driver/days of DE. Shiner780 will be able to confirm this since every PCA event must file an incident report for *any* accident, however minor, injury or not.

For the novice, DE is about learning to drive properly, something that few owners of high performance cars know. For the experienced, it is an opportunity to enjoy practicing a skill. There is no prize for coming in first, there is no money awarded. The pleasure of driving well is the only reward.

Some people confuse DE with racing and indeed try to race other cars. A good event organizer will recognize this behavior and "adjust attitudes" as needed, in severe cases, eject the particpant(s) from the event.

For the past five years, we have had one incident a year, an incident defined as damage to a car. This year we had four over a total of 1600 driver/days of DE. I am alarmed at the increase and taking steps to prevent it this coming season. Still, we are talking about dented fenders, hitting a deer etc., nothing involving an injury.

I attribute our good safety record to the event organizers. the track chair - who is swift with a black flag for the wrong kind of driving. Pro flaggers who can spot a person driving over his/her head within a half lap, and a team of solid instructors who can reel in drivers who have the wrong idea of what it takes to drive fast safely.

Your safety on the track is mostly a function of how *you* drive. If you drive over your head you're more likely to have an accident. On the other hand if you drive like that on the track, your driving record on the streets is not likely to be exemplary either. The car is not dangerous. The track is not dangerous. The driver is dangerous ... or not.

Finally for TD - my wife (and mother of two boys) not only enjoys DE, she is an instructor. Our 19 year old is now a participant. I insist on the boys going through the program because in spite of anything we as parents say, we *know* that they will drive too fast. Mine know how to do it safely. That's one example of the estimate of risk by a woman. If Arlene Novak choses to chime in.. there will be another supporter.

Best,

Glen

It is a very dangerous sport. Period. Your wife and You need to come to terms with that and statistics etc...are irrelevant. Do everything You can to prevent harm, pro built cage, factory built racecar, Hans etc... nut and bolt everything after each event, do all You can...still dangerous, still get taken out by someone else, Your own mistake or a mechanical. Probably not what You want to hear but Your wife is correct. My family is covered with insurance etc...but also still understands and is very supportive that this is a part of my actually "living life".

Greg Fishman

I agree with Glen. Statistics are great but how would they matter if your number was pulled... Stuff happens and it happens quick. I was a relatively new instructor and jumped in a student's car ("A" student) that wanted some input on his line at Putnam since it was a fairly new track for him. Car had a tire that went flat between turn 9 and 10 and we were aimed straight at the pit out wall and the guy had zero control of the car. Fortunately he went to full brake lock and the car went sideways as it bounced over the exit curbing and we hit the haybale protected armco sideways. My only injury was a sore neck for a couple weeks. Also seeing a video of a former student in his Viper as he lost his brakes at the end of the front straight at Carolina Motorsport Park a few weeks after I was in his car at 170mph at VIR. Those two incidents or non-incidents were enough to make me a bit more cautious about who I ride with and safety in general. Statistics don't give a crap if you have been perfect every time out on the track, or if the organizer has a perfect record, etc.

Todd,
In summary my suggestion is to talk to your wife about why racing/tracking your car is important to you and why you are willing to take the risk.

carreracup21

Yeah, the GA press releases downplayed the injuries. The information I received was accurate though.

gbaker

The Daytona Beach News-Journal article of 11 January was consistent with cup21's post.

mark kibort

i have many friends that have been killed doing other things. skiing , driving on the roads, etc. I personally know no one that has been killed racing or DE driving. its an odds game. when im on the race track, we all all paying attention, all have helmets on, with saftey equip, lots of walls and gravel designed to take an out of control car and slow it down, etc. On the the street, do i need to list the risks? just go down your mountain road, cars going head on, trees everywhere, cliffs, etc. Now, open road racing is dangerous, racing and DE'in on a race track is not in my book.

sure, we could all stay home and hide under a bed, but statistically speaking, the french fry kills many more!

mk

sjanes

Like most "dangerous" hobbiess, the level of danger is related to how the person approaches the sport. The only person I've seen die while skydiving died because he wasn't taking it seriously and wasn't prepared to handle a chute problem.

An intelligent and respectful approach will reduce the risk, but it doesn't mean nothing will happen. You have been 4 wheels off in the past, so you know how easy it is to do. If you go off and hit something at triple digit speeds, it's going to hurt. Maybe a lot, maybe a little, but you will feel it. What makes this hobby dangerous is that a mistake can put you in a position to be injured.