How does the "line" change for banked turn?
02-05-2006, 01:23 PM
#1
How does the "line" change for banked turn?
Can someone explain to me how your line changes in the 3 phases (turn-in, middle, track-out) of turning on a banked turn vs. a flat turn? Is it all the same just at higher speeds because of the bank? What are some ways to use the bank to your advantage? How can your entry braking change to take advantage of the bank?
02-05-2006, 01:43 PM
#2
I'm no expert but during HPDEs at Brainerd, turn 1 is an example of a high speed banked turn.
We're told to enter that turn not at the extreme outside edge of the track but around 3/4 of the way over, the inside of the car is at the middle of the track. This is different than most corners where I'm told to get over to the side of the road. Turn 2 at BIR is similar to T1 but isn't banked and for that everything reverts to normal. I'm not sure whether this is the racing line though as it's a HPDE event.
Besides this and the high speed, I didn't notice any other differences in that turn but then I've a lot on my mind through that turn so right now, I'm not sure what I'd notice
Billy
http://www.trackpedia.com
We're told to enter that turn not at the extreme outside edge of the track but around 3/4 of the way over, the inside of the car is at the middle of the track. This is different than most corners where I'm told to get over to the side of the road. Turn 2 at BIR is similar to T1 but isn't banked and for that everything reverts to normal. I'm not sure whether this is the racing line though as it's a HPDE event.
Besides this and the high speed, I didn't notice any other differences in that turn but then I've a lot on my mind through that turn so right now, I'm not sure what I'd notice
Billy
http://www.trackpedia.com
02-05-2006, 02:40 PM
#3
Drifting
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Depends upon what you are trying to accomplish and how your car is set up. At the California Speedway in NASCAR turns 1 and 2 I have tried three different lines looking for more speed through the turns. This year I will have a data acquisition system on board so I will find out which is fastest for my car.
My car runs out of horses going into the sharper turn 2. If I come in high I can carry more speed longer though it is a longer distance the the lower line. Staying high also provides the benefit of turning in going down the banking helping with the speed issue and horsepower. At any rate there are many lines to take the but the safe line is the low line because it gives you some margin for error incase you have an incident like a right front tire blow out, yikes!!!
The other factor is traffic. Sometimes I go high and stay high and other times I go in low and come out high while yet others I stay low the entire time. Just depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
My car runs out of horses going into the sharper turn 2. If I come in high I can carry more speed longer though it is a longer distance the the lower line. Staying high also provides the benefit of turning in going down the banking helping with the speed issue and horsepower. At any rate there are many lines to take the but the safe line is the low line because it gives you some margin for error incase you have an incident like a right front tire blow out, yikes!!!
The other factor is traffic. Sometimes I go high and stay high and other times I go in low and come out high while yet others I stay low the entire time. Just depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
02-05-2006, 02:56 PM
#4
Lifetime Rennlist Member
If you mean a truly banked turn, then in most cases the cars we drive can not get high enough speeds to run out of grip. In other words, you can go flat on pretty much any line. If not, then you need a traditional line to maximize grip.
In the first case, a lower line results in a shorter distance and is a good thing. But you have to play around. Sometimes, it pays to go high early when you have a lot of torque available and that altitude climb does not cost much. The payoff is that you get some extra acceleration towards the end when you drop to a lower line.
In the first case, a lower line results in a shorter distance and is a good thing. But you have to play around. Sometimes, it pays to go high early when you have a lot of torque available and that altitude climb does not cost much. The payoff is that you get some extra acceleration towards the end when you drop to a lower line.
02-05-2006, 02:59 PM
#5
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by bnewport
I'm no expert but during HPDEs at Brainerd, turn 1 is an example of a high speed banked turn.
We're told to enter that turn not at the extreme outside edge of the track but around 3/4 of the way over, the inside of the car is at the middle of the track. This is different than most corners where I'm told to get over to the side of the road. Turn 2 at BIR is similar to T1 but isn't banked and for that everything reverts to normal. I'm not sure whether this is the racing line though as it's a HPDE event.
Besides this and the high speed, I didn't notice any other differences in that turn but then I've a lot on my mind through that turn so right now, I'm not sure what I'd notice
Billy
http://www.trackpedia.com
We're told to enter that turn not at the extreme outside edge of the track but around 3/4 of the way over, the inside of the car is at the middle of the track. This is different than most corners where I'm told to get over to the side of the road. Turn 2 at BIR is similar to T1 but isn't banked and for that everything reverts to normal. I'm not sure whether this is the racing line though as it's a HPDE event.
Besides this and the high speed, I didn't notice any other differences in that turn but then I've a lot on my mind through that turn so right now, I'm not sure what I'd notice
Billy
http://www.trackpedia.com
If not, often times the banking is not consistent and poeple find lines that avoid bumps and find the greater amounts of banking. Grattan, for example, has a banked corner that is pretty slow (affectionately called the toilet bowl). If you take the low line (at least last time I was there) it is bumpy - the combination of bumps and banking will bottom many cars so a higher line is faster.
02-05-2006, 04:21 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=SundayDriver]How steep is the banking there - steep enough to take the corner flat?
I agree with Sunday on speeds, but at Pocono South Course it can get real hairy over 135. You really need to "use the track out" after the apex in order to avoid an argument with the wall. So, entry to the turn is looking down into the lower groove and following the "patch" marks with a single wheel arc, then tracking out as the turn flattens. You really need to track out alot here, more than you think. I am sure some dissagree so takes this as a grain of salt. I guess a better answer to your question is check with a track veteran on each and every track you visit with high banked turns. Pocono has some bad patches and I am sure you have heard about it's "tunnel turn" and Nascar.
I agree with Sunday on speeds, but at Pocono South Course it can get real hairy over 135. You really need to "use the track out" after the apex in order to avoid an argument with the wall. So, entry to the turn is looking down into the lower groove and following the "patch" marks with a single wheel arc, then tracking out as the turn flattens. You really need to track out alot here, more than you think. I am sure some dissagree so takes this as a grain of salt. I guess a better answer to your question is check with a track veteran on each and every track you visit with high banked turns. Pocono has some bad patches and I am sure you have heard about it's "tunnel turn" and Nascar.
02-05-2006, 04:29 PM
#7
I can't compare the banking with other tracks as BIR is the only banked track I've been to.
The brave can absolutely take the corner flat but not yours truly. Johns Ferrari 348 finds the sump in that corner bumpy and he avoids it and stays a little high, I don't notice it in my 996 but I'm also going maybe 15-20mph slower.
Billy
http://www.trackpedia.com
The brave can absolutely take the corner flat but not yours truly. Johns Ferrari 348 finds the sump in that corner bumpy and he avoids it and stays a little high, I don't notice it in my 996 but I'm also going maybe 15-20mph slower.
Billy
http://www.trackpedia.com
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02-05-2006, 04:57 PM
#8
Bob,
The Pocono south banking is where one of our instructors (Yellow 240Z renegade) stuffed it into the wall two years ago. I gave him the pass to the left down in the lower grove and speed and flattening of the track after the corner pulled him out of shape. Seemed like the rear tires stuck and the fronts just continued to push to the right. He tried to correct but just seemed to make the angle he was approaching the wall at greater. Was a very frightening crash to witness cause it was a hard hit at about 75 degree angle to the wall. I was happy to see the driver up and walking afterwards. Fortunatly I saw him getting out of shape and backed down till I knew what was going to happen. The car went straight down the wall after the back end straightened out along the wall so all I had to do was drop down and avoid a flying hood. Although I am not as fast as you I know that I track out alot coming out of the apex and get very close to the wall where the track flattens. Have noticed that some do not get as low in the apex as I do but that is the longer way around and my car pushes a lot around that turn so I need all the track out I can find.
The Pocono south banking is where one of our instructors (Yellow 240Z renegade) stuffed it into the wall two years ago. I gave him the pass to the left down in the lower grove and speed and flattening of the track after the corner pulled him out of shape. Seemed like the rear tires stuck and the fronts just continued to push to the right. He tried to correct but just seemed to make the angle he was approaching the wall at greater. Was a very frightening crash to witness cause it was a hard hit at about 75 degree angle to the wall. I was happy to see the driver up and walking afterwards. Fortunatly I saw him getting out of shape and backed down till I knew what was going to happen. The car went straight down the wall after the back end straightened out along the wall so all I had to do was drop down and avoid a flying hood. Although I am not as fast as you I know that I track out alot coming out of the apex and get very close to the wall where the track flattens. Have noticed that some do not get as low in the apex as I do but that is the longer way around and my car pushes a lot around that turn so I need all the track out I can find.
