Alan Herod

I know that we discussed this before; but, I am raising the subject again. I attended a recent event put on by another region and because of familiarity with the track a number of folks in advanced run groups (Red & Black) asked me to ride with them and help them with areas where they might pick up some more speed. I got in one race prepped car where the driver donned his Hahns device and proceeded. I did not question his use of the Hahns; although, I did feel uncomfortable. If this safety equipment allows a driver to feel secure in pushing the envelope further, are we as instructors taking undue risks? I know that the answer we came up before is that we should not discourage anyone from wearing the safety equipment that they purchased -- that said, personally I would rather the driver assumed the same risk that I am assuming since they asked me to ride in their car.

RedlineMan

You raise an interesting point, Alan;

The rules generally stipulate that if there is a passenger seat installed, and a passenger present, that both sets of restraints must be "equal." If the passenger cannot or will not use the harnesses installed (for whatever reason), and decides to use the OE restraints, then the driver must too.

Does this also now need to include the use of H&N equipment? Now that I think of it, it does.

In the specific instance of HANS use, the proper deployment of these devices requires a pretty well defined set of parameters to optimize them. Will both occupants fall within the same proper parameters? If so, then both can employ their HANS devices. If not, then neither should, it seems to me.

And the line grows finer and finer yet.

mitch236

I didn't get the same interpretation as you. I thought the rule meant that equal restraints had to be available but if the passenger chose to use the oem belts, that would be his/her choice but the driver could still use the harness. As far as the HANS device is concerned, it would be impossible to provide this to a passenger since the helmet has to be modified. I certainly wouldn't take a passenger who requested me to remove my HANS because I couldn't supply him with one. Besides, I would think that a HANS devise wouldn't fall under the constraints of a restraint.

JCP911S

I have absolutely no problem with this. To me use of a H&N device indicates somebody with a serious appreciation of the risks involved and good judgement.

I wouldn't consider use of H&N to violate the "equal restraint" rule.

mrbill_fl

Could someone who has H&N equipment tell me, if these devices require a harness?

(will (would) it work in a typical stock sholder/lap seatbelt).

Do you have good (enough) neck movement that you could use it and still instruct from the RT seat?

(ie read drivers eyes, able to turn neck)

-if harness is required, for H&N protection should we require this for DE cars?

Alan Herod

Mitch what you are saying is essentially correct, but in this case the driver is the one that asked the passenger to ride with him. It is illogical to assume that each instructor come to the track with the appropriate H & N device for each car that he or she may be asked to ride in.

JCP911S

Yes. H&N is really a "personal" equipment like a helmet... not something that is part of the car... I wouldn;t hesitate to ride with somebody because they has a more expensive helment than me...

Lemming

The R3 does not require a harness, that's exactly the reason that I bought it, I can wear it when instructing a student, regardless of their seatbelt configuration.

I agree that the H&N is a personal safety device, like a helmet.

Alan Herod

When considering the device, you should consider what the purpose of the device. I agree with that part of your statement; but, I also believe that the H&N although personal becomes part of the restraint system. Since this actually happened to me I am relaying my feelings. I did instruct the person as they requested and made no mention of it.

shiners780

The same could be said for a nomex firesuit, couldn't it? I say if you're uncomfortable with the situation as a passenger, simply bow out. No one is making you go for that ride. As a driver, I certainly am not going to lessen my safety equipment because my passenger doesn't have the same.

I don't really understand the "I have a cage/H&N/firesuit/ignition cut-off/fire suppression/high containment seat, etc, so it's OK if I smash into a wall" mentality. Do these things really give people a false sense of security and cause them to "push the envelope" more than they would without them? I upgrade safety items because I'm going faster, I don't go faster because I've upgraded my safety items.

Professor Helmüt Tester

If you were assigned a student who had a $1k Stand 21 helmet and an $800 Sparco suit, would you make him leave that gear behind in the paddock because you only had a ratty Bell Snell 95 helmet, jeans and sneakers ?

Is that what I'm hearing here ?

You're kidding, right ?

Alan Herod

Of course not. That sounds irritating and condescending, personally I do not believe that is the same thing at all -- I believe that the H&N is a restraint device and should fall under similar guidelines as equal restraints, because the purpose is to restrain the head. As others have said, I could have just said no. As another poster have stated they purchased a device that is independent of the vehicle for that very purpose and I think that is a good solution.

The real question should be -- is the H&N a restraint device?

JCP911S

Hard to generalize... eveybody is different, but on the whole, I find that there is a correlation between experience, the level of safety equipment, and the responsible attitude of the driver.

I think the causality is not...."I've got alot of safety equipment so I can ball it up with impunity..." I think it is more "... ****, I'm starting to really drive hard, I need to get more serious about this...."

I'd say most guys at that level have either balled one up already, or got close enough to understand what is really happening here.... gets your head straight real quick.

Then there are those guys that just don't seem to give a ****... they smack up cars over and over and never seem to learn... but work gets around...you mostly know who they are....

RJay

So when I saw Hahns device I was excited, I thought it was something about Jessica's implants... That dates me.

Anyhoo....equal restraint is an interesting problem. Does it mean that I have to offer a seat and belts that can accomodate a H&N or does it mean that I have to supply a HANS as well? Equally, I run the Schroth Hans shoulder belts on the drivers side, but have retained the 3" ones on the passenger side as theres only one guy thats ever been in my car who had one as well. To be within the rules, would that mean that I'd have to change the belts out depending on whether the passenger had an H&N or not? Or if you didnt have one and I didn't supply one it would be out of bounds. At this point, I doubt many green and yellow students show up with an H&N at this point, although in future who knows, particulary if the prices become a little more realistic. My assumption is that once your out of the mandatory instruction levels, the instructor is making a conscious decision to get in the car and has the right to either accept whats there or not go.

TD in DC

Alan,

For what it's worth, I would imagine that most drivers forget they are using an H&N restraint device while they are on the track. I know I do. I try to take every possible step to make myself safer, but I still don't want to go off the track. So, I don't think that the mere fact that a driver is using an H&N device would make a passenger more unsafe by creating a false sense of security in the driver.

If you like, you could get an R3 for yourself, or even an ISAAC like I have. Provided that the student driver has harnesses (I would bet that most, if not all, of drivers who have H&N devices would also have harnesses), it wouldn't be too hard to clip on your own ISAAC to the passenger side harness.

Here is a pic of me using my H&N device. Our own Eli took the pic.

Also, for those of you who use the ISAAC, the angles look pretty good on my setup, don't they?