Hahns-like devices and DE
#91
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(Slighly OT, for which I apologize a priori.)
10 years from now all harnesses will come standard with a belt connector for a H&N restraint, and all helmets will come standard with a complimentary connector. No one "wears" anything. You get in, you hook up and you go.
The 3-point belt is another matter, though.
10 years from now all harnesses will come standard with a belt connector for a H&N restraint, and all helmets will come standard with a complimentary connector. No one "wears" anything. You get in, you hook up and you go.
The 3-point belt is another matter, though.
#92
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Kam, Getting the club to pay for H&N restraints is right up there with the "kool aid drinkers" that once took club money to buy a camcorder... citing it as an instructional tool. It was then used to just tape themselves b/c they're too cheap. Why should I pay more for a DE event b/c an instructor is too cheap to buy a restraint? Sort of like guys showing up in a pickup for the tech day to balance tires.
Ok i'm done. Off to the 13 hour.
Ok i'm done. Off to the 13 hour.
#93
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Originally Posted by Alan Herod
Thanks for the clarification. I can see where I might have confused some with what I said. I never said that person should remove their safety equipment. This was not a student's car but an upper run group instructor's car. The first time that I posted a similar question, it was speculative, the second time was experiential.
#94
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Hey All;
I feel better now.
I don't pretend to know who is tryng to throw stones or perhaps just struggling with their phrasing a tad. I didn't catch the previous thread on this topic mentioned. I think it is clear that - regardless of Alan's motivation or point of view - the underlying points that this brings up are quite worthy indeed. They have inspired some good thought here, and that is NEVER a bad thing.
In the end, we obviously need to take care of our instructors. In the same breath, and perhaps on the other side of that coin, our instructors SHOULD be dedicated and intelligent enough to set a good example for the student group as a whole. To be honest, that is the primary reason I got my HANS. After the fact, man... I feel safe with that thing on!
I feel better now.
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In the end, we obviously need to take care of our instructors. In the same breath, and perhaps on the other side of that coin, our instructors SHOULD be dedicated and intelligent enough to set a good example for the student group as a whole. To be honest, that is the primary reason I got my HANS. After the fact, man... I feel safe with that thing on!
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#95
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My view about the H&N device is simple. It's not a permanent piece of safety equipment in the car, so like a helmet or drivers suit, it is up to the individual to decide exactly how "safe" they want to be. The equal restraints rule does not apply to the stuff you bring on your own.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#96
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if i may say....this debate seems silly.
the bottom line here is COMMON SENSE.
we all want to stay safe.
if a driver is concerned enough about his own safety to purchase and use a Hans, he's probably concerned about his car and his passenger as well.
if an instructor is not comfortable with a student, he should make things comfortable or bail out.
if an instructor who normally wears a Hans is driving the students car or his own car with a student passenger aboard....should the instructor leave his Hans in the pits?
the things that determine how fast I'm driving or how fast I'm trying to drive do NOT include Hans. i started wearing a Hans this season, and it doesn't make me drive faster or less safe.
the bottom line here is COMMON SENSE.
we all want to stay safe.
if a driver is concerned enough about his own safety to purchase and use a Hans, he's probably concerned about his car and his passenger as well.
if an instructor is not comfortable with a student, he should make things comfortable or bail out.
if an instructor who normally wears a Hans is driving the students car or his own car with a student passenger aboard....should the instructor leave his Hans in the pits?
the things that determine how fast I'm driving or how fast I'm trying to drive do NOT include Hans. i started wearing a Hans this season, and it doesn't make me drive faster or less safe.
#97
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Mitch:
I'm not suggesting clubs should pay in full for H&N device for instructors.
DE programs in general makes good profit for the clubs. They should be able to help regular instructors to get the device at a reduced price without increasing fees for students.
I think more instructors would buy H&N device if clubs would subsidize like they do with communicators years ago.
Cheap Kam ( I purchased the R3 system with my hard earned money, Woo Hoo)
I'm not suggesting clubs should pay in full for H&N device for instructors.
DE programs in general makes good profit for the clubs. They should be able to help regular instructors to get the device at a reduced price without increasing fees for students.
I think more instructors would buy H&N device if clubs would subsidize like they do with communicators years ago.
Cheap Kam ( I purchased the R3 system with my hard earned money, Woo Hoo)
#98
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Originally Posted by Mike in Chi
John
I do think this discussion has evolved a bit, and some of it in light-hearted satire. But it's getting at an even bigger issue.
How do you protect the instructors? We do know how much horsepower the student has under his right foot. We do know that some the cars they show up in are very unforgiving.
I do think this discussion has evolved a bit, and some of it in light-hearted satire. But it's getting at an even bigger issue.
How do you protect the instructors? We do know how much horsepower the student has under his right foot. We do know that some the cars they show up in are very unforgiving.
#99
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Here's the rub. Two problems exist.
1) there is a lack of definative information about safety devices as witnessed on these pages.
2) no club, and very few individuals are willing to stick their legal necks out and devise a proper minimum safety requirement that is realistic.
1) there is a lack of definative information about safety devices as witnessed on these pages.
2) no club, and very few individuals are willing to stick their legal necks out and devise a proper minimum safety requirement that is realistic.
#100
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I went through the mail last night and perused through my regions monthly newsletter/magazine. Since this thread is about safety I thought I would post this. Here are 2006 changes by NER PCA for DE:
"In the past we have strongly recommended that appropriate “race seats” (those with proper holes for the pass through of all harness belts) be installed when using 5/6 pt. harnesses. Beginning with the 2006 DE season it is now required that when using 5/6 pt. harnesses proper “race seats” must also be used. This will be incorporated within the pre-tech form. Remember that the “equal restraint” requirements still apply.
Referring to the tech sections above, we allow cabriolets to run with tops down if 5/6 pt. harnesses and arm restraints are used. (In some cases a roll bar is also required.) If those of you with cabs wish to continue driving with your tops down, it is now necessary to install proper “race seats” to accommodate your 5/6 pt. harnesses."
Apparently in the past some have showed up with the sub strap going down over the front of the seat, which was always questionable.
Also SA95 helmets are no longer allowed.
"In the past we have strongly recommended that appropriate “race seats” (those with proper holes for the pass through of all harness belts) be installed when using 5/6 pt. harnesses. Beginning with the 2006 DE season it is now required that when using 5/6 pt. harnesses proper “race seats” must also be used. This will be incorporated within the pre-tech form. Remember that the “equal restraint” requirements still apply.
Referring to the tech sections above, we allow cabriolets to run with tops down if 5/6 pt. harnesses and arm restraints are used. (In some cases a roll bar is also required.) If those of you with cabs wish to continue driving with your tops down, it is now necessary to install proper “race seats” to accommodate your 5/6 pt. harnesses."
Apparently in the past some have showed up with the sub strap going down over the front of the seat, which was always questionable.
Also SA95 helmets are no longer allowed.
#101
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Originally Posted by Alpine951
Beginning with the 2006 DE season it is now required that when using 5/6 pt. harnesses proper “race seats” must also be used. This will be incorporated within the pre-tech form. Remember that the “equal restraint” requirements still apply.
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I myself don't like stock seat and 5 or 6 point setups and don't recommend them. 6 point systems don't require the sub hole and I bet when installed well with a stock seat they work better in an impact than the stock 3 point. If we reason that this is the case the rule will produce less safety overall unless the race seat and 6 point system were required not just recommended. Adding a 6 point system is not too hard to do. Driving to and from work every day sitting in a race shell for an hour is.
Again this leads us back to "What is a good limited system?" We can't mandate full systems in DE as then there would be no more DE.
#102
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Originally Posted by kurt M
... I bet when installed well with a stock seat they work better in an impact than the stock 3 point. ....
#103
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Originally Posted by kurt M
6 point systems don't require the sub hole and I bet when installed well with a stock seat they work better in an impact than the stock 3 point.
This is wrong. The sub belt is only half the problem, the shoulder harness will NOT be properly located if they have to go around the headrest. Now if the car has a seperate headrest, then an argument could be made about how safe it is.
Just as an aside, why is a 6-point sub better than a 5-point sub if they are coming around the front of the seat and not through a proper race seat hole?
#104
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The first point, in reality, depends on the actual size of the headrest more than anything. If it's a Lay-z-boy seat, then of course it's not located properly. If it's the kind of headrest that sits on two metal prongs then those sometimes can allow shoulder belts to sit even closer together than through harness slots.
#105
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Originally Posted by kurt M
It could be argued that this will cause some people to stay with 3 point and not add a 6 point as then the stock seats would have to be removed from the daily driver.