Hahns-like devices and DE
11-04-2005, 05:43 PM
#106
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Originally Posted by }{arlequin
The first point, in reality, depends on the actual size of the headrest more than anything. If it's a Lay-z-boy seat, then of course it's not located properly. If it's the kind of headrest that sits on two metal prongs then those sometimes can allow shoulder belts to sit even closer together than through harness slots.
I'm talking about the factory sport seat with the integrated headrest.
11-04-2005, 05:59 PM
#107
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Originally Posted by }{arlequin
The first point, in reality, depends on the actual size of the headrest more than anything. If it's a Lay-z-boy seat, then of course it's not located properly. If it's the kind of headrest that sits on two metal prongs then those sometimes can allow shoulder belts to sit even closer together than through harness slots.
Safety isn't something you can do on the cheap. Little is in this sport, but if your going to cheap out, safety is certainly not the place to do it. Skip an event or two, buy the damn equipment.
11-04-2005, 08:55 PM
#108
I think it should be driver beware. let tracks or event coordinators make rules based on their insurance premium cost. You can isure almost anything if you are willing to pay the price. I think the answer can be made more simple. Why not inform the DE or racing public what is a safe car and how a safety system is what you want not a safety device. Why are most novice driver meetings and school all about car dynamics and how to go faster and control your car? In 5 years I have had zero instruction on what is a safe car. I can't be the only one here with this experience? For my first 4 years being safe was getting pass tech.. I think I am beginning to know what makes a safe car now. Finally, to you brave instructors I am glad I am a novice. It would scare the heck out of me to get into some of the cars I see. I don't know how you do it. We owe you more than "thanks" taking your life in our hands..
11-04-2005, 08:59 PM
#109
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Well...
The last few posts trying to speak intelligently about the use of harnesses with stock seats highlights perfectly why safety is such as difficult topic to deal with. Because the belts "CAN" slip off the shoulders, it is deemed dangerous and innapropriate. Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen a lot? No. does is pose a theoretical threat? Yes. Does it pose a constant threat. NO!
That this phenomenon can occur has become the stuff of horrifying legend, when in fact there is absolutely no data to support such sweeping and flawed generalizations. This is the portion of safety talk that drives me absolutely stark raving mad. Once does not and never will mean always!!!!!!! There are ALWAYS other points to be considered!!!!!
It is down to a matter of percentages. You need to factor in how likely something is to happen to make an informed decision, balanced against the potential benefit. I need a cage because a tree might fall on my car while I'm cutting fast laps.
Certainly people of slighter physical geometry will have more POTENTIAL problem with this, but it is only POTENTIAL. So, get an H-strap harness, or simply cross the shoulder straps. This mitigates the vast majority of concern.
The other side of the coin - back to the "original insight" part I mentioned in my last rant - is how many accidents do harnesses prevent in the first place? Drivers sliding around and losing control, lacking proper concentration to drive well. I'd wager more than a few crashes have resulted from people NOT wearing harnesses.
For the record, I am not overly enthusiastic about harnesses with stock seats. I used to do it. I instructed a car with this setup last month. In fact, I requested the stock seat be put in because I could not FIT in the race seats they had. I asked that the belts be crossed. Worked like a charm. Great retention. I'm tall and have broad shoulders. Lucky me.
If I see someone who has that setup, and they make the case that they weighed the potential risk, and decided the benefit was worth that risk, who am I to tell them they can't do that? I may or may not utilize their setup, but I won't tell them they are wrong. At least not concerning this overblown topic.
The last few posts trying to speak intelligently about the use of harnesses with stock seats highlights perfectly why safety is such as difficult topic to deal with. Because the belts "CAN" slip off the shoulders, it is deemed dangerous and innapropriate. Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen a lot? No. does is pose a theoretical threat? Yes. Does it pose a constant threat. NO!
That this phenomenon can occur has become the stuff of horrifying legend, when in fact there is absolutely no data to support such sweeping and flawed generalizations. This is the portion of safety talk that drives me absolutely stark raving mad. Once does not and never will mean always!!!!!!! There are ALWAYS other points to be considered!!!!!
It is down to a matter of percentages. You need to factor in how likely something is to happen to make an informed decision, balanced against the potential benefit. I need a cage because a tree might fall on my car while I'm cutting fast laps.
Certainly people of slighter physical geometry will have more POTENTIAL problem with this, but it is only POTENTIAL. So, get an H-strap harness, or simply cross the shoulder straps. This mitigates the vast majority of concern.The other side of the coin - back to the "original insight" part I mentioned in my last rant - is how many accidents do harnesses prevent in the first place? Drivers sliding around and losing control, lacking proper concentration to drive well. I'd wager more than a few crashes have resulted from people NOT wearing harnesses.
For the record, I am not overly enthusiastic about harnesses with stock seats. I used to do it. I instructed a car with this setup last month. In fact, I requested the stock seat be put in because I could not FIT in the race seats they had. I asked that the belts be crossed. Worked like a charm. Great retention. I'm tall and have broad shoulders. Lucky me.
If I see someone who has that setup, and they make the case that they weighed the potential risk, and decided the benefit was worth that risk, who am I to tell them they can't do that? I may or may not utilize their setup, but I won't tell them they are wrong. At least not concerning this overblown topic.
11-04-2005, 09:07 PM
#110
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By the way...
For those wondering why the GD H#$% PCA has not been providing a better service to their members by putting out good safety equipment information? Well, I've wondered too, as you might imagine.
I can now tell you that - after the phone call I got today - it is happening. If I can blast my way through the bureaucracy, chances are I will be in the thick of it. I can't tell you what the final form will be, nor how extensive, but something IS happening.
Patience, boys & girls.
For those wondering why the GD H#$% PCA has not been providing a better service to their members by putting out good safety equipment information? Well, I've wondered too, as you might imagine.
I can now tell you that - after the phone call I got today - it is happening. If I can blast my way through the bureaucracy, chances are I will be in the thick of it. I can't tell you what the final form will be, nor how extensive, but something IS happening.
Patience, boys & girls.
11-04-2005, 10:52 PM
#111
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Well...
The last few posts trying to speak intelligently about the use of harnesses with stock seats highlights perfectly why safety is such as difficult topic to deal with. Because the belts "CAN" slip off the shoulders, it is deemed dangerous and innapropriate. Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen a lot? No. does is pose a theoretical threat? Yes. Does it pose a constant threat. NO!
That this phenomenon can occur has become the stuff of horrifying legend, when in fact there is absolutely no data to support such sweeping and flawed generalizations. This is the portion of safety talk that drives me absolutely stark raving mad. Once does not and never will mean always!!!!!!! There are ALWAYS other points to be considered!!!!!
It is down to a matter of percentages. You need to factor in how likely something is to happen to make an informed decision, balanced against the potential benefit. I need a cage because a tree might fall on my car while I'm cutting fast laps. Certainly people of slighter physical geometry will have more POTENTIAL problem with this, but it is only POTENTIAL. So, get an H-strap harness, or simply cross the shoulder straps. This mitigates the vast majority of concern.
The other side of the coin - back to the "original insight" part I mentioned in my last rant - is how many accidents do harnesses prevent in the first place? Drivers sliding around and losing control, lacking proper concentration to drive well. I'd wager more than a few crashes have resulted from people NOT wearing harnesses.
For the record, I am not overly enthusiastic about harnesses with stock seats. I used to do it. I instructed a car with this setup last month. In fact, I requested the stock seat be put in because I could not FIT in the race seats they had. I asked that the belts be crossed. Worked like a charm. Great retention. I'm tall and have broad shoulders. Lucky me.
If I see someone who has that setup, and they make the case that they weighed the potential risk, and decided the benefit was worth that risk, who am I to tell them they can't do that? I may or may not utilize their setup, but I won't tell them they are wrong. At least not concerning this overblown topic.
The last few posts trying to speak intelligently about the use of harnesses with stock seats highlights perfectly why safety is such as difficult topic to deal with. Because the belts "CAN" slip off the shoulders, it is deemed dangerous and innapropriate. Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen a lot? No. does is pose a theoretical threat? Yes. Does it pose a constant threat. NO!
That this phenomenon can occur has become the stuff of horrifying legend, when in fact there is absolutely no data to support such sweeping and flawed generalizations. This is the portion of safety talk that drives me absolutely stark raving mad. Once does not and never will mean always!!!!!!! There are ALWAYS other points to be considered!!!!!
It is down to a matter of percentages. You need to factor in how likely something is to happen to make an informed decision, balanced against the potential benefit. I need a cage because a tree might fall on my car while I'm cutting fast laps.
Certainly people of slighter physical geometry will have more POTENTIAL problem with this, but it is only POTENTIAL. So, get an H-strap harness, or simply cross the shoulder straps. This mitigates the vast majority of concern.The other side of the coin - back to the "original insight" part I mentioned in my last rant - is how many accidents do harnesses prevent in the first place? Drivers sliding around and losing control, lacking proper concentration to drive well. I'd wager more than a few crashes have resulted from people NOT wearing harnesses.
For the record, I am not overly enthusiastic about harnesses with stock seats. I used to do it. I instructed a car with this setup last month. In fact, I requested the stock seat be put in because I could not FIT in the race seats they had. I asked that the belts be crossed. Worked like a charm. Great retention. I'm tall and have broad shoulders. Lucky me.
If I see someone who has that setup, and they make the case that they weighed the potential risk, and decided the benefit was worth that risk, who am I to tell them they can't do that? I may or may not utilize their setup, but I won't tell them they are wrong. At least not concerning this overblown topic.
11-05-2005, 10:10 AM
#112
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there are too much bureaucracy in usa already... while i think H&N systems are great i don't think they should be mandatory at the DE levels (except maybe the adv. group where some already require 5+ pts harness). sadly this year there seems to have been numeours deaths in DE, of which many probably could have been saved with a H&N system in place... i can't believe the $450k CGT comes with weak sauce little 3 pts seat belts. i'm glad the racing sanctioning bodies are making H&N devices mandatory. i think it makes sense in full race environment.
11-05-2005, 08:15 PM
#114
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For my .02, I will not instruct a student whose restraint system for the driver is superior than the one for the passenger (me). As for me taking a student, my car is fitted with only one track seat/restraints for the driver and not for the passenger...so, I don't normally take students. I do think having the Hans device is the way to go and probably will become mandatory in time.
11-06-2005, 02:28 PM
#116
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To get back to the original idea of the post, yesterday I was moving my track car and realized that I have different seats for the driver and passenger. (I knew it, just forgot about it for this disscussion).
My seat is a HANS Recaro while the passenger seat is a regular Recaro. Does this mean that I don't have equal restraints and can't take a student out? If I were a student would the instructor refuse to instruct? Sticky stuff!
My seat is a HANS Recaro while the passenger seat is a regular Recaro. Does this mean that I don't have equal restraints and can't take a student out? If I were a student would the instructor refuse to instruct? Sticky stuff!
11-06-2005, 05:27 PM
#117
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Originally Posted by GhettoRacer
thanks for the welcome back but i hope it ain't haiku season again. lets talk more about bbq's. 
I'm glad you are keeping your sence of humour! 
Welcome back.
