I'm putting in safety equipment for DE and 'am thinking about:

- Replace Porsche Leather Sports Seats with GT3 seats
- Installing a TeEquipment Rollbar
- 5 pt harness
- Fire extinguisher

And here's the question for you experts...since my sports seats are comfortable for long journeys (I use the car for both street & track) should I leave them in there and just put in a BK harness bar? Will that setup work well for a 5 pt harness (I 'm 6'2" tall)? Or should I go all the way and put in the setup listed above.

Thanks...

 

If you roll the car while wearing a harness you will be held bolt upright ..and if the roof collapses you are hurting. With a harness use a roll bar. The Teq is a nice piece of kit,

 

Bobby, C.
Just a few thoughts, On top of what Bob has already alluded sports seats will not keep the belts where they need to be in a collision. Gt3 seat offer a lot more lateral support and you've got the openings for the shoulder/lap/submarine belts and will stay put.

I installed the Das bolt-on roll bar, to me it looked better and is atleast as sturdy as the tequipment bar.

I went with the 6-point harness (schroth) instead of the 5-point, which appeared to be the popular choice here.

You've got to look into the safecraft fire extinguisher, a little more expensive, but looks maginificent. I got my gt3 seats from brandywine porsche, and the rest from Devek (site sponsor), I'll recommend the same for you. You may also want to do a search on these topics if you have'nt done so yet.
regards
Jeeva

 

First...

I would start with a car you can actually learn to drive to the limit.

From there;

- SIX point, not five.
- Get the DAS bar. It is indeed more rugged.
- Get the GT3 seats. You need belt retention (holes) to make them really work well.
- Fire systems cannot be argued against, although they are a bit of overkill for a stock DE car.

Lastly, the subject of harnesses and race seat with no roll bar. With a LOT of respect accorded to Bob, I must utterly disagree. Not in theory, mind you, but in terms of reality.

I do not for one minute buy into the idea that the most present danger in a roll over is having the roof come down on you. It is a well proven fact that the VAST majority of roll over injuries stem from the driver hitting the car, not the other way around. Harnesses will keep you in the seat where your head will not smash into the door or windhshield frames, which IS quite the most present danger.

On the rare ocassion when a roof does come down into a driver, then there may indeed be some merit to the argument Bob makes, and I cannot argue against someone considering it, but the percentages simply are not there to make it a rule.

Everything we do involves playing percentages. Always do what you think is best.

 

I echo the advice, based on research not practice. I have the GT3 seats from Brandywine (also my local dealer, but good pricing on these items), and am getting 6 point belts, DAS bar (it may stiffen the car some, too), but probably not a fire extinguisher, at least for a while.

 

John - as usual I do not disagree with the odds and percentages. Ever since I saw a 996TT which rolled at a CVR event (WGI) which had the roof collapse far enough to crush the passenger side headrest, I have a hard time getting the image of a harnessed in driver out of my mind. Fortunately there was nobody sitting in the passenger seat at the time. As a matter of interest do we have reason to believe that a regular three point belt won't prevent a driver from hitting the roof etc? What with the pyrotechnic pretensioners etc. I assume they do a decent job of keeping the occupant away from hard surfaces. I wear a 6 point harness to hold me in place in the car - making my inputs smoother and unaffected by unwanted movement caused by braking, cornering etc.

Best,

 

Bobby
I am doing exaclty the same and have been trying to decide between the BK harness truss and the DAS roll bar.

Mine is a street car also so I will try to put in/take out the truss or roll bar before/after the DE events.

I am leaning more towards the roll bar now (difference in installing time is 45minutes vs more structural support of the bar).

My question here regards the harness (do not want to steal your thread though). I have been looking at 6 points harness and I am still confused.
There seem to be many different makes (Simpson, Sparco, Schrotch,G-force), 2' or 3' belts (lap and shoulders), link/latch vs camlock, different attaching points for the sub belts vs single (look at a Simpson 6 points vs Sparco vs G-force).

Have you chosen one? and if you have what did you base your decision on?

 

Yes, I am quite aware of the incident you refer to. I remember it being brought out at that Zone Presidents Meeting. As I mentioned, I fully understand the rational behind your stance. Who wouldn't consider it after that? However, as I stated in my opposition to making roll bars mandatory with shells/harnesses, I feel the vast majority of those who would be helped by belts (improved concentration at the least) will have their safety reduced to accomodate a very small fraction of those who can't keep their roofs in place! I've always wondered how many accidents harnesses may have prevented?

In order to reduce the likelihood of the passengers hitting the car, the lap belt must remain very tight, and a harness certainly will do that by design. Pre-tensioners may indeed mitigate this to some extent. However, the shoulder portion of a 3-point cannot keep the upper body in place laterally like 2 seperate shoulder straps. With offset hits and/or forces, the upper body will move sideways to a much greater degree. If this is to the drivers side, even if the lap belt tensions enough, the head is still more vulnerable to impact.

By the way, the recommendation FOR harnesses in all situations came from a panel of safety experts at a Performance Racing Industry show a couple years back.

 

John - I am aware of the panel discussion and you have referenced it previously. Still the pictures of that TT left a strong impression on me. If someone is going to invest in a pair of GT3 seats, the underseat bar for the lower harness mounting, the lovely Schroth harnesses, why not add a few bucks more and get the bar too.

I see we'll have lots to talk about in July over beers

Best,

 

Matteo...like you, I'm still researching and learning. Haven't made any decisions yet.

 

Matteo -

The Simpson and Sparco you picture require different sub mounting than the G-force. The difference is in how the sub attaches to the harness.

The idea behind a sub is to;

First, keep the lap belt low on the hips instead of riding up when you pull the shoulder straps tight or you hit something.
Second, depending on which type it is and how it is mounted, the sub will stop downward torso travel by stopping hip rotation forward and out from under the lap belt.

In crash studies, Schroth has found that sub belts that do not directly link to the lap belt do not load the entire belt system as quickly as those that do, nor as completely. Further, since they do not attach to it, they do not hold the lap belt low on the hips as well. This would apply to the Simpson and Sparco belts you pictured, which are known as "formula" style.

Since hip rotation control is optimized by a low lap belt, and these formula types do not accomplish this overly well, the mouning angle of these formula subs must be different to compensate. To gain hip control back, you mount the tails much more rearward (behind the seat) and then wear the subs fairly tight to your groin, pretensioning them in effect, so that they will take up slack very quickly.

Obviously, this would tend to be less than comfortable over a long period of time, but it will work. Relative to a single sub that is mounted forward (no contact with the groin), this system is much better at stopping body motion quickly. The single is much WORSE if you actually hit something and rotate forward!

The G-Force "V" sub you picture is a bit different. Since it attaches directly to the lap belt and keeps it ultra-low, it is not relied upon as much to directly control hip rotation. Therefore, and if you have a race seat, it can be mounted in a more forward position than the formula (about 40 degrees rearward from the "spine line"), which lessens it digging into your groin in a static state. The downside is that the clip-in hardware is STILL right on top of your boys, and if you hit something... well...

Look at the two subs pictured below, and given the above discussion, I think you will immediately see where these have distinct advantages.


The one on the left is known as a "T" sub. It clips into the buckle as per normal. It offers direct linkage, and also has the belts spread wide apart to give you "breathing room." This one happens to be a Schroth, but several companies make them.

The one pictured at right is the Schroth Hybrid, which accomplshes much the same thing, with one slight advantage: The "T" bar hardware forces you to set up your belts such that the lap belt is a little higher to make room for the "T" clip above your thighs. The Hybrid can be worn super low without having anything to dig into your body.

The advantge of BOTH of the these latter systems is that because they hold the lap belt so low, you can mount them further forward (20 degrees), improving comfort by further reducing them digging into your crotch.

Lastly, Schroth has found that 2" lap belts stay in the "fold" of your lap much better than a 3", which can tend to ride up and "flip over" your iliac crests.

So, there you have the Full Belt Progression.

 

Absolute agreement there. I just didn't like the "mandatory" part. And I am SOOO very much looking forward to a few Summer days in the Laurentians!

 

OT: RedlineMan - I really like your new avatar. That is my favorite 993 in race trim. There's a 1/18th scale model of one, but they are hard to find now.

 

John

I sent you an email... I thought it was best to keep it outside rennlist I am interested in a Redline bar plus other questions

 

John, so for a system, you like the Schroth Hybrid, right? I see versions I, II and III, and further versions, with 2" shoulder belts, for use with the HANS. I thought the 2" shoulder belts were JUST for use with HANS, though, and yet you note some benefit from 2" lap belts, too. Thoughts?