Larry Herman

Ok all you hot shoes out there, which do you think gives you a faster lap - driving super smooth or driving with controlled aggression?

My definition of super smooth is consistant placement of the car, to it's limit, with minimal sliding in a very controlled fashion. The car never feels like it is upset or on the edge of control.

My style is more of a controlled aggression where I am really working the car and the tires. I am consistant, and take the same lines lap after lap, but you can feel the car squirming and twitching for traction.

In both examples the driver is very smooth, and all inputs i.e. turn-in, throttle and brakes are smooth, but the difference is in the feel and movement of the car.

Or do you think that it is tire dependent. A street tire can be driven smoother due to it's wider breakaway characteristics, where as a slick will be more abrupt, and therefore lead to a twitchier car?

Z-man

Larry -
Can you give hypothetical slip angles for both super smooth and controlled aggression?

And how many laps in succession are we talking here?

-Z.

jim3

Not even close, time a lap in DE hitting all your marks and then time a lap in qualifying where you're on the gas so much sooner (still need to be smooth on the brakes) and then constantly correcting, in my case there's significant difference. Last two years at then Glen, I qualified over a second faster than I practiced and then my fastest lap was over a half second faster in the race. Don't think DE guys have any appreciation how much harder you drive on a race weekend compared to DE. And then qualifying rachets it up even further. My friends and I think DE actually makes you a slower racer because of the extra comfort level that sneaks in.

RedlineMan

Hmmm...

Of course there are a lot of varbiables, and the car's sertup and equipment has a lot to do with it. If the car is very neutral, well setup, and has plenty of grip, you can get away with driving more aggressively without effecting lap times. If the car is ill-handling, or is soft and not loaded with grip, you pay a large price for being anything less than buttery smooth.

I might be tempted to add another choice. Is it track dependant as well? I don't know if there is any way to drive a track like Mid Ohio and not be assertive. Drivcing quickly there is an intense study in managing slip angles constantly. I'm not sure it is possible to be quick and buttery smooth there.

The other extreme would be the Glen. Smoothness (along with accuracy) is absolutely rewarded there. The only place that gets the old carotid arteries bulging is the Inner Loop, and maybe The Toe.

Mosport & VIR are somewhere in the middle, a little bit of both. Muscle required in 5A/B, 8/9/10 (former) and NASCAR, Left Hook, Snake, and Oak Tree (latter). Smoothness everywhere else to varying degrees.

No... I'm not sure there is a clear answer. I think smoothness when it is called for, and controlled aggression when needed to MAINTAIN smoothness. As I always tell my students before I take them out for a ride, Smoothness is relative to the task at hand!

RedlineMan

I would say that the thinking man looks at the venue in question and drives appropriately. It is not appropriate to wad your car up at a DE. It simply does not fit the framework of what we are trying to do, and you will look like a schmuck.

Racers don't seem to be similarly "inhibited."

Larry Herman

I would agree that racing for a $30 trophy changes your outlook. I have rarely spun at a DE, yet when I was club racing I frequently spun once a weekend in practice. I was just trying that much harder. It was the pressure of trying to stay at the front.

JCP911S

IMHO, driving smooth with aggression will be faster than simply driving smooth.... it takes a certain amount of extra effort to push the car to its limit....but this is subjective.... how much aggression is "aggression"?

Scientifically you could define "aggressive" driving style as using more slip angle in a given turn.... in that case, using less than the optimum calls for a more aggressive style.... and using more than the optimum requires less ... every tire has an optimum slip angle... but that really doesn;t answer the question.....

Some factors to consider:

Tires: Some tires (MPSC for example) like more slip angle and heat than others (Hoosier SO4) so you must adjust your diriving style to get the most out of a given tire. I find I can abuse MPSCs in a way that would cause the SO4s to fade.

Track: A fast track rewards a smoother line and less slip angle. A tight course with sharp turns requires more "attacking" style.

Goal: For qualifying, you can punish the tires for a few laps to get the max... in a race you need to preserve them... so a smoother style will yield the fastest overall time at the expense of a single quick lap.

Car: A light, low power momentum car is probably faster with a tider, smoother style so that you do not scrub off speed. With a really high powered car it is probably faster horsing the car through the turns and getting on the power earlier.

I think what makes this question hard is that everybody has a different definition of what "aggressive" is.... but I do think you need an attacking mentality to drive a car to the limit....

riviera 93

super smooth, qualifying
controlled aggression, racing

M758

I voted super smooth, but I have different definition of super smooth.

I feel that you can be super smooth and controll, but still sliding the snot out of the car. What I mean is that every slide is controlled and smooth. Although you are catching saving the car every lap it happens so effortlessly that is still very smooth. You are not over sliding the car, but sliding just the right amount. When viewed from outside the car looks poised and perfectly under control at all times. Even if it is really sliding all over the place.

Simply if a car feels completely under control it is not going fast enough. I needs to feel a on the edge to be fast. Howeve the level of sliding is dependant on the car, tires, corner, and set-up. In my spec car I want to get the back end rotating at all times to maintain speed in the car. In go kart I have driven the syle is very different. Rear end Sliding = slow.

To me controlled agression is very different and imply you are working the car hard. In my experinence this can lead to oversliding and over heating tires. It often is required in racing however since you must pull the car off line to pass. The fastest way around a track is you hit your marks and have the car flow from one corner to the next with minimal inputs. The key is minimal inputs not always minimal sliding and no corrections.

eugene

Combination of both.

Eugene.

analogmike

You just read my mind...

Those were the two tracks I was thinking of. I nearly set a lap record at the Glen race last year with 3 bent valves, by driving super smooth and getting on the gas very early. No negative lock corrections, no sliding. That track is more suited to my style than Mid Ohio, which I still can't quite figure out. I think I need to be a lot more aggressive in the last turn (carrousell) at Ohio to carry more speed onto the straight, but I'm still unsure of the GT3 cup car at the limit in 2nd gear, both cornering and accelerating limits. Same in the keyhole and madness... I must be losing nearly a second at each of those turns.

Good luck!

ZBlue996Kam

Sticky tires - smooth
Street tires - aggressive

Greg Fishman

i think I am the opposite. Qualfying needs an all out effort. Racing does at times but mostly you need to be spot on and precise with your car. No reason to run half crazed when you are half a lap ahead of your competitor, etc.

mark kibort

BZZZT wrong answer. aggressive!!!!! that is if you want to be fast the care LOOKs smooth on the outside, but make no mistake, the top drivers are working, sure, making it look easy, but none the less WORKING. shumacher saws like a logger!!

smooth vs agreesive is worth about 2 seconds a lap. so, when you need to save car and tires, you can be fast smooth, but slower!

Just this weekend, i was really on edge with the competition being so close. I put down my best lap and laps within .2 seconds for the first 6 laps, then we hit lapped traffic and things changed all together. point is, aggressive, but consistant is the key!

MK

MJR911

worth 2 seconds at Lime Rock Park and Road America?