vegasgolf98

Geo, This is not about who is right or not, it is a just good intellectual discussion on safety that every one (including myself) and benefits.

Sometimes people don't always think all of the variables through. If one installs a 6 point into too small of an opening, -what to you really have? A 5 point like belt that is placing load on the edges of the seat -not where it was designed. Maybe I'm not describing the problem well.

Let's just say that if you use a 6 point, make sure the seat was designed for it after all what good is the safety design if the seat cannot take advantage of it? That is all and just trying to help.

macnewma

I have been looking into this myself and I am still confused about 6-point mounting. These are the three options I see:

1. Route sub belts under legs through the side openings (normally used for lapbelts) and mount near or in conjunction with the lapbelts.
2. Route sub belts between the legs, through the typically bottom mount hole (normally used for a 5pt subbelt). These are mounted beneath the seat.
3. Modify the seat so that the sub belts route under the legs and exit somewhere between the lower center hole and the lapbelt holes.

Which one is correct or does that depend on the manufacturer of the belts?

Max

vegasgolf98

If you modify the seats, will it pass tech? I suggest you contact your seat manufacture or distributor and ask only them what it correct. Cutting holes in your seat bottom may disqualify the seat from competitive use (for good reason).

M758

Yes you are correct, but

Max's question still stands.

What is the best mounting for a 6pt harness?

I don't know.


What i have done it mount my 6 pts per the schroth manual. It seems to show the 6 points going down from the crotch area and then mounting the floor torward the edges of seat, but right below the driver. They are not mounted to the lap belt points nor as far back as the lap belt points.


So Who has the answer for Max? I know I don't?

PS... what good to 7pt belts if we can't figure how to mount 6 points? Just wait till we have 3 points we have not idea where to put!

M758

Here is a copy of the Schroth 6pt mounting instructions
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Crotch Strap Routing and Anchorage Location
July 2002
Tests have proven, that improved restraining performance is obtained when T-bar or
HYBRID Restraints with crotch straps are attached to the chassis as shown in following
figure.



Distance D – D approx. 100 mm longitudinal directed
To find the appropriate anchorage location “D” follow the line representing the tangential of the chest and crotch down to the chassis. Within a range of minus 20o toward the rear of the chassis the ideal location can be found. Make sure the attachment provides a longitudinal strap positioning, so the crotch strap runs flat on occupants upper thighs.

For F-type restraint, the crotch strap can be routed backward to join the lap belt anchorages. This is not the most appropriate routing, but there is not detailed evidence which deems this unacceptable.

For more information on T-Bar and Hybrid restraints, see SCHROTH Hybrid-Restraint or HANS-Compatibles-HYBRID PowerPoint presentations which contains sled test videos showing the higher body trajectory of a F-type harness restraint. These information also can be obtained on our web site www.schroth.com .

-------------------------------------------
Here are links to PDF Mounting Document from Schroth.
Schroth Crotch Belt Mounting (Same as above)
Schroth Lap Belt Mounting
Schroth Shoulder Belt Mounting

fatbillybob

I still use a 5pt. Is there a cutaway picture of how it is supposed to look like when I have a 6 or 7 point on? I hear cradle, parachute, 2/3 sub but I can't picture how a 6 point actually works. Also which seat comes stock with the 3 sub holes? Is it the full containment Ultrashield?

Thanks!

Geo

I agree it's absolutely not about who is right and who is wrong.

The Schroth instructions are now confusing me. My understanding has been that with a 6-pt you sit on the straps and route them through the lap belt holes. I see the confusion now as I'm just as confused by those mounting instructions.

I'll have to see if I can find more from Dr. Melvin. I know I've read where he is a STRONG proponent of the 6 or 7 point. I know Vaughn was at a seminar where he spoke. Vaughn, wanna speak up?

fatbillybob

Also, I did not see a 7 point on the schroth site. Who makes them or do you buy a 5 point and add the 6 point sub sonehow? I need new belts soon too and need to figure all this stuff out.

RJay

Well all this talk of 6 pt made me just decide to change over now while we're doing all the cage work. 'course that led me into a question about Hans and wound up buying that as well. I hate you friggin guys. And now I'll live long enough to hunt you all down.

BTW Mr. Redline you going to LRP on 4/7-8? If so, love to shake you hand & perhaps get and/or give a ride.

ltc

George,
Add me to the confused list as well.

My Recaro ProRacer SPG (same as used in GT3 Cup cars) is 4,5 and 6 point ready.
I dont' sit on my sub belts.
Currently, they are routed thru a horizontal slot (provided in the seat/padding by Recaro) down to mounting points on the tub....very close to the Schroth .pdf's provided by M758 (thank you).
So apparently, there are 2 different kinds of 6 point sub belts:
those you sit on and those you don't?

Edward

OK, I understand (I think) the benefits of the 6-point system over the 5-point if the sub straps are routed under the legs and out the bottom/back of the seat ...this seems to make sense given the aforementioned explanations. It also makes sense (to my pea brain anyway) that an improperly mounted 6-pt will not yield the intended benefits, and may even be more dangerous than a proper 5-pt setup.
What DOESN"T make sense to me is how a 6-pt's two sub belts coming down the same sub hole as a single sub in a 5-pt is any better. One belt, two belts ...if they are coming down the same hole where's the gain? In fact, the way I see it is two sub belts mounted toward the rear will put strain on the seat's sub hole, a lateral stress that it was not designed for.

Let me assume, then, that the ideal ("proper" ?) 6-pt setup is safer, so I will exclude that from consideration because I don't have the proper seat for it, nor do I want to cut holes into my seat.

So here are two specific questions (similar to the original post):

Is a 6-pt where the dual subs come out the lap belt holes better or worse than a properly mounted 5-pt?

AND/OR, is a dual sub coming down the sub hole really better than a regular single sub, and if so explain how?

Thanks!

Edward

Geo

Well, interestingly enough, on the Bimmerforums racing forum someone posted a bunch of Schroth instructions and there is yet another 6-pt they make they they suggest to mount as I described.

What I would love if for Doc Melvin or someone with similar testing experience publish something laying this stuff out. We get info that sounds correct, but then we get confusing signals from elsewhere. Myself, I'll stick with Doc Melvin... what I've heard.

924RACR

Yes, I'll likewise stick with what I've heard from John Melvin, Tom Gideon, and the rest of the pros. I sit on my sub belts, and they're mounted to the same point as the lap belts. I have a Kirkey Al seat, so I was readily able to just cut openings for the belts no problem. Obviously you have to take care that they have properly rolled edges to not just cut the belts.

I do find it frustrating that it's so hard to find the properly matched components for the best protection (especially 7-pt belts), and when you do find them they're only the hyper-expensive models. Those features could easily be engineered into the less expensive seats and belts, but they aren't. Grinds my gears.

Bull

LRP on 4/7-8, yep. And I'll check out how you mounted your belts......

Then Pocono on 4/9-10!

RedlineMan

I'll give it a shot;

1) A single sub is ONLY designed to retain the lap belt in a low position over the hips. It is not designed to DIRECTLY aid in occupant retention by stopping body motion by contact. This is a fairly simple task, and the mounting therefore is not overly critical. Creating downward force on an extended line roughly parallel to the spine (straight down from the latch) is all that is required. Straight down through a hole in the seat base is best. Mounting over the front cushion of a stock seat will allow the belt to lengthen if force is applied to the cushion, allowing the lap belt to rise. Still, as long as downward tension is placed on the lap belt, the sub is doing its job to some extent regardless on mounting. If you can, employ a race seat with a base hole.

2) A double sub mounted in the same fashion offers no gain in performance, as Edward rightly surmises. Frankly, I don't know why they exist? I must assume someone thought 2 straps would take more force than one, but since they do not see that much force to begin with, I don't see the need?

3) As I mentioned previously, the cradle arragement stops forward hip rotation and consequent downward torso movement. When you are looking at creating a cradle type mounting, then the mount point becomes more critical. This cradle arrangement is now intended to DIRECTLY-BY-CONTACT retain the occupant. Obviously the more "in contact" or tight-to-the-body the cradle is in a static state, the more effective it will be, as it will "take up" sooner and stop the aforementioned motions sooner. It is now a DIRECTLY ACTIVE, in-contact-with-the-body part of the harness, just like the lap belt, instead of somewhat passive like a single sub.

As such, the mounting point must logically be such that the sub wraps around the hip area to some degree. In other words, the mount point must then be behind a line extending down from the spine, as shown in the Schroth diagram.

If the holes in your seat base allow this mounting angle, then you are set. If they do not, and you contemplate cutting new ones, you MUST pay very close attention to how this will effect the structural integrity of the seat under force. It is my feeling that an alloy seat is much more configurable in this regard. I would be EXCEEDINGLY CAUTIOUS in trying to modify a plastic seat.
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Other Points:

- In regards to Point #2, There are two types of double subs. The traditional "V" type, and modern "T" type. There are also other methods of terminating the subs at the latch that allow a gap for ones privates to remain unfettered. If you create a cradle arrangement with a "V" type, you will quickly see why the "T" or wide types were developed. When properly adusted, the clip-in "V" type will offer little if any more "freedom" for your manhood, as the latching clip extends down in front of said delicate assemblies. The "V type will offer the cradle retention, but at the likely cost of said manhood if force is applied in a collision. The choice is painfully obvious here.

- In regards to 7-point systems, I can imagine that a cradle type arrangement gives up some of the lap belt positioning properties of a properly installed single sub. In that regard, I can see how a 3-point sub would be more effective. It combines the straight downward lap belt retention with the hip retention of the double cradle system. Best of both worlds!

- Ultrashield is the only company I am aware of who's seats are configured for a 7-point system. I suspect that Butler may also offer such an option, and certainly any of the alloy seat manufacturers (those 2, plus Kirkey) could build them that way on a custom basis likely for little if any extra.

- Simpson, Butler, Willans, TeamTech, and Schroth are companies that offer either "T" type clip-in or other forms of wide mount double sub arrangements. There may be others, but I am not aware of them. I know that Ultrashield offers a 7-point system (and there may be others), but I am unclear if they offer the wide mount arrangements for the two side sub straps.

I believe this at least roughly approximates what the top experts are advising currently, and is based on my own research of all available sources. I'm sure there's more, but I'm out of gas for now...