forklift

On Color's DAS thread, Redline Man brings up a topic I have been meaning to post on for a while, which are reference points. As a beginner you drive cone to cone, but then you either look for new reference points as the cones aren't naturally there, or you can just look through the corner and see where you need to be (track out). I do the latter and only use reference points for braking at the end of long straights with obvious marks like the paint strips at Summit Point or the numbered markers at VIR. When I started instructing and the cones were taken down (as Redline spoke of), I was forced to find physical marks on the track such as cracks or gravel patches/holes etc. off track for the student to use (even though I tell them to keep their eyes up). I now know where these are, but do not use them as they force you to look where you are (bad) rather than where you are going (good) IMO. However, in Skip Barber's book he says that most (not all) great drivers use them. I know they are used primairly for consistency, but feel I am consistent at my turn-ins.

RJay

For the corner itself, I try to find some form of track out marker. Occassionally, theres a sign or light pole that lets you know what to head for in blind situations. I try to never focus on a braking point. I find if I start to focus on a braking point or corner entry, my vision starts to shorten and its more likely I'll be looking at the spot too long to see if I'm on the mark, not really see whats next and make a big mistake. If I can see where I want to be on exit, braking, turn-in, apex, stay in my peripheral vision and really just happen by default.

Chaos

I always pick a turn in point !
Hitting it is a whole different issue !

SundayDriver

Hold on to your hats - here is my system. I developed part of this on my own then got a clearer methodology from a pro.

Depends entirely on the corner. Each corner on a track should be classified and ranked. The ranking is simply to know where to put your efforts first, so that does not apply to this topic. Classify each corner as to what aspect is the MOST important:

Braking (entry speed)
Turn-in
Apex
Track-out

For example, at Mid Ohio - T1 is very fast but tolerates a lot of slop on the line. I can miss the marks by a couple of feet and it doesn't much matter. Braking/entry speed is everything there. I focus on the very light braking for max entry speed and don't much care if I miss the marks a bit.

T9 is all about turn-in point for me. I am focusing on a reference for turn-in.

T11 is apex. Screw that up and you may dance with a wall. Light braking there but I am looking for the apex and the position of my car as I cross it. If it is right, then all is good. If not, then corrections are needed and quickly. Once the apex is hit, you must use an expernal reference as the corner is blind. The billboard was THE reference until they removed it this year. Now it is a dip in the tree line.

T13 is turn-in because of the roller coaster entry. Turn eraly or late and the car will puch badly. Once I hit that I look for an apex mark to know that I can get hard on the throttle.

T14 is odd but I would call it apex. It is vital that you hit a particular mark just prior to apex. Miss it by a foot and the car pushes - forcing you to stay out of the throttle.

Larry Herman

When I started driving on the track, I learned where I wanted to be using reference points for braking, turn-in and apexing. After a few years, I was pretty much down to braking points only, and when I started club racing, I stopped using any reference points at all. It was really kind of hard to see them when you were in a crowd anyway.

Now, I really just have a sight picture in my head for each turn, and I kind of know exactly where to do things. I do notice points occasionally, but that is only if I am trying something different. It could be that I am just using my peripherial vision, and I don't realize it; doing everything subconsciously. I find that now, especially when I am at a new track, I have to look to see the markers if I want to tell someone at what points I am braking or turning in.

It's just me though, and I don't know if what I do is of any help to others; i.e. that it is something that you want to be able to do.

JackOlsen

Every corner is different. Some are very easy to read, and you don't have to think about it much. Some are never easy to read, no matter how many times you drive them, and reference points can be a useful tool as you try different approaches, trying to nail down a decent line.

I think using cones is okay for beginners, but it's dangerous to always have them. There's always the risk of them moving, or getting put in the wrong place.

sjanes

The only place I use a reference point is for corner 2 at Mosport. Because of the way the corner drops off, you can't see it when you have to turn-in so it's hard to look through the corner. Everywhere else, I just use my vision to determine where and how I want to brake and turn-in.

The problem with reference markers as I see it is that they are only good if you are doing the exact same thing every lap. If you are doing a late pass on the inside going into a corner, then the braking and turn-in reference point for your normal line isn't very useful.

I do use shifting reference points to determine how well I went through a corner though. I know where I usually change up a gear after exiting a corner, and I compare that to where I have to shift for that lap. The sooner I have to shift, the better the exit was.

Professor Helmüt Tester

Racetrack archeology is very important. Pavement seams, repair patches, paint spills...basically anything that won't move...are all stored away in my little database of 'WTF am I ?' reference points. If you limit yourself one or two reference points per corner, then if you're in traffic and can't pick them up, you're SCREWED.

Reading assignment: Keith Code's 'Twist of the Wrist' series. Yeah...it's about motorcycle roadracing, but the lessons apply to any sort of racing. Great stuff on 'spheres of vision' and the use of reference points to make you fast and get you out of trouble.

Mosport - just to build up your database...T4 has a great reference, if it hasn't been cut down...there's a white birch in the sea of green that you can see in the distance as you approach the (very very blind) T4. It's on the inside of the track, in the woods, roughly opposite the 'track out'. As you approach the corner, just aim for the damn tree. Yeah...it's 200 yds away...but by focusing your line on it, you won't be temped to brush the brakes on entry (which too many people do) and as long as you don't try to steer in mid-air (between the 'turn-in' and when the car actually 'lands' and has some steering at the bottom of the hill), you're golden. Screw it up and you get to see the inside of a helicopter.

Doesn't that sound like FUN ?

sjanes

Funny you mention reference points for T4 at Mosport. My very first DE day was at Mosport. Before my first run, a guy that had some Mosport experience wrecked his 944 in T4. Backed into the wall hard enough to blow the windows out of the car (he was OK though). Apparently what happened was that drivers used to use the 'y' in the "Players" sign on the bridge at the top of T4 as their reference point. Unfortunatly, during the winter rennovations of the track, they took the bridge down. The driver claimed he got confused or lost or something when he didn't see the bridge, although I guess he never thought of slowing down

There is a new bridge and sign there now, and I imagine it's being used as a reference point by some. T4 is a lot like T2 where driving by vision is difficult since you can't see the track when you turn in. I'm pretty consistant in T4, and I no longer touch the brakes at the top, but I guess after many laps there, I just know where to put the car without using a specific reference. Or maybe I do, and just don't realize it.

I'll check out the book though. I try to keep a fairly open mind about this whole track driving thing.

GUMBALL

In picking a reference point, care must be taken not to pick something that can move, or be moved.
The only way to be consistantly fast, is to drive a precise line - having the car in the exactly correct place and attitude all of the time. And the only to do that is by working to specific reference points, EVERY corner, EVERY lap, EVERY racetrack, EVERY time.....
Also, the procedeure of using a point of reference, is NOT to focus your eyes on it, but to locate it in your peripherial vision.
In regard to the "placement of eyes"...focus on where you want the car to go, and allow your natural reflexes to do their job.
If one is not being precise, then one is merely "driving around"..............
The top professionals (Clark, Stewart, Senna, Andretti, Mears, Schumacher, etc) were able to do this do this every lap, every session..........the rest of us try....................

Professor Helmüt Tester

The bridge is back at T4 ? Wow...haven't been there in 3+ years, and that bridge was missing for a bunch of years. Previously, the entry to T4 felt like driving into a 2-car garage at 100mph...with your eyes closed. Yeehar. My favorite piece of racing pavement on earth is Mosport from the exit of T1 thru the exit of Moss Corner. T2 is the biggest pucker of all road course corners in North America (since Bridgehampton is now gone...), T3 is faster than most people think it is, but not always as fast as I think it is (YIKES !!!), T4 is F-L-A-T in 4th gear in everything I race, and Moss is where I made my 'best-ever last lap pass for position in a Nat'l race' move to get into the top 5. Been every track from Florida to Canada and no place matches Mosport.

Why ? It requires 'vision', since so many of the corners are blind (sorta like the old Mt. Tremblant, before they got crazy and cut down 'Le Diable' with bulldozers). Is it weird to talk about 'vision' and 'blind corners' at the same time ? Yup. You don't need 'vision' as much as you need 'orientation' and 'situational awareness'. You have to know where you are at every moment, and just having a cone or two per corner as a reference point will slow you down, and (IMO) make you 'unsafe'. I can discuss corners with my fellow racers, and we'll talke about little spots and dots and marks all over the track. Non-racers look at us like we're aliens speaking in tongues. They'll say "Do you actually have time to see all that stuff out there ???" Well...duh...YEAH....once we've gotten beyond just trying to keep the car on the pavement, we've worked on a skill-set that allows us to see all sorts of stuff out there - who's working on what corner station, who's riding a tractor/mower in the infield, where our friends standing on the fences watching the race. It's a critically important skill to see beyond the "PORSCHE" or "BMW" badge on the trunk of the car in front of you.

Motorcycle racers (and really good street/canyon riders) do this stuff instinctively. That's why I cited Code's stuff. Little mistakes and spins for us are HUGE mistakes and painful crashes (or worse) for them. Car guys have much to learn from bike racers.

Noel

"In picking a reference point, care must be taken not to pick something that can move, or be moved."

That is the problem with picking asphalt patches at Nelson Ledges. You have to relearn your old reference points every time you visit. They are constantly patching and repaving there.

mitch236

All good drivers use some reference points. Most of the better drivers use sight pictures so their eyes can be looking ahead instead of at some refernce point on the track surface. Although for brake zones, using a definate track surface structure allows the driver the accuracy needed to do "the proceedure" which is outlined in "Going Faster" and is must reading for most of us.

brucegre

What the professor said - and I agree about Mosport, except I still have bigger pucker at Tremblant if I go over 2 and through Diable flat out. Which isn't really a problem, it's getting slowed enough for the esses after that

Sorry, all the snow is making me nostalgic. What I really wanted to say is: reference points are OK for learning a track, and if you want to use them to work on a particular aspect of driving, they can really help. BUT - if you have to focus on them, that's a different story. If the only way you can hit an apex is to stare it down, well, what do you do after that?

Once you start picking up reference points using peripheral vision, things get a lot less exciting - and you get a lot smoother and faster. Then you go racing and find out why reference points are merely "suggestons" of where you should brake, turn in and so on. And why you need to really practice vison skills.

I can drive the line at Tremblant or Mosport consistently lap after lap after lap. If only those other cars would get off my line and out of my way that is. This is where the reference points move to the background and vision and awareness kick in in a big way. Just my .02, but whenever I get in trouble on the track, it's because I'm focusing too much on a couple of points, and not using my eyes correctly.

Cheers,

P.Po

Reference points are great if you are trying to drive consistently. I can drive consistent lap times using reference points. No doubt about that.... both those laps are not my fastest. Being at the point where I am dangerous enough to try to find the limit, but not skilled enough to know what to do when I get there, I change my position on the track too many times to use small references consistently. Basically, if I do a really good job off a corner, I have more speed then usualy and my normal braking point needs to be adjusted and that carries over to everything...

Other racing such as Ice Racing and dirt Rally-X/Rally driving has left me with a bad habit of looking so far ahead that reference points need to be big consistent things in the distance. Like a large tree in the field on the outside of 5B at Mosport when I am driving into 5A.... the close stuff I tend to ignore since I prefer to look far ahead....

I would like to say that I am going too fast to see any reference points... but that is simple not true!!!

-Patrick