Porsche, profits, the race program, and the soul of the company
12-14-2004, 06:58 PM
#46
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Max
"Audi simply doesn't count. Not because the R8 is less than spectacular but because Audi doesn't really build sports cars."
Please note the name of this new Audi which was just given the green light for production.
http://www.germancarfans.com/photos....02/audi/1.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...lz1d4audi.html
http://www.i4u.com/article604.html
I bet they are paying very close attention in Zuffenhausen.
"Audi simply doesn't count. Not because the R8 is less than spectacular but because Audi doesn't really build sports cars."
Please note the name of this new Audi which was just given the green light for production.
http://www.germancarfans.com/photos....02/audi/1.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...lz1d4audi.html
http://www.i4u.com/article604.html
I bet they are paying very close attention in Zuffenhausen.
12-14-2004, 07:00 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Man....you guys sure have been talking up a good one this time!
but just to but my head in the door if I may.
Max, I personally know a few people that are just waiting for 997 Cup to go 'on sale' So as JCP stated, 150k isn't that much for A LOT of people.
The GT1-98 flipped at the Petit le Mans the same year in won Le Mans...luckily it was the backup car renumbered to be the race winner. I was sitting at turn 5 looking at the jumbo tron when I saw the nose of the car start to lift, I turned 180^ and saw it flying through the air, a horrifying sight, but luckily the driver was ok. What was really special was when Franz Konrad actually stopped his GT-2 Evo and got out to check that the driver was ok.
You guys have forgot to mention that a Porsche has won a major race in the past few years...TRG won overall at Daytona a couple years ago. HOWEVER, this race was the first year of the Daytona Protoype, so by the end of the race, it was a GT race, not a prototype race. Not to downplay TRG as the guys out there are grear and I feel I personally helped fund their effort with all the parts I've bought from them the last couple of years!
When the Carrera GT was being developed, it did start life as a race car. It was then decided to turn the car into a street car and then build the SUV instead of take the GT racing.
I don't think this has been printed anywhere, but you'll never convince me that the Audi R8 didn't start life as a Porsche; the Joest connection is just too fishy.
What the plentiful amount of 993 RSRs, Cup cars, GT3R and GT3RS's has done is allow many more people to get into club racing as a starting point and then eventually work their way up into Speedvision and Grand AM. The only problem with Grand Am in '05 is the rule changes to where if you have a GT3 R/RS you have to convert to the Cup suspension, run a sealed PMNA motor, and the car has to weigh 2600lbs, you can't run a rear diffuser, the Crawford 'spec' rear wing, no sequential trans messes up the 997 Cup. The fact that you can't use centerlocks sucks as well, but that's already in the rules so I can't complain about that one.
Just thought I'd chime in.....
but just to but my head in the door if I may.
Max, I personally know a few people that are just waiting for 997 Cup to go 'on sale' So as JCP stated, 150k isn't that much for A LOT of people.
The GT1-98 flipped at the Petit le Mans the same year in won Le Mans...luckily it was the backup car renumbered to be the race winner. I was sitting at turn 5 looking at the jumbo tron when I saw the nose of the car start to lift, I turned 180^ and saw it flying through the air, a horrifying sight, but luckily the driver was ok. What was really special was when Franz Konrad actually stopped his GT-2 Evo and got out to check that the driver was ok.
You guys have forgot to mention that a Porsche has won a major race in the past few years...TRG won overall at Daytona a couple years ago. HOWEVER, this race was the first year of the Daytona Protoype, so by the end of the race, it was a GT race, not a prototype race. Not to downplay TRG as the guys out there are grear and I feel I personally helped fund their effort with all the parts I've bought from them the last couple of years!
When the Carrera GT was being developed, it did start life as a race car. It was then decided to turn the car into a street car and then build the SUV instead of take the GT racing.
I don't think this has been printed anywhere, but you'll never convince me that the Audi R8 didn't start life as a Porsche; the Joest connection is just too fishy.
What the plentiful amount of 993 RSRs, Cup cars, GT3R and GT3RS's has done is allow many more people to get into club racing as a starting point and then eventually work their way up into Speedvision and Grand AM. The only problem with Grand Am in '05 is the rule changes to where if you have a GT3 R/RS you have to convert to the Cup suspension, run a sealed PMNA motor, and the car has to weigh 2600lbs, you can't run a rear diffuser, the Crawford 'spec' rear wing, no sequential trans messes up the 997 Cup. The fact that you can't use centerlocks sucks as well, but that's already in the rules so I can't complain about that one.
Just thought I'd chime in.....
Last edited by Jarez Mifkin; 12-14-2004 at 07:17 PM.
12-14-2004, 07:35 PM
#48
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Jason
"I don't think this has been printed anywhere, but you'll never convince me that the Audi R8 didn't start life as a Porsche; the Joest connection is just too fishy."
I too figure there's a lot of Porsche in the R8. I'd go way past Joest to one of the largest stockholders in Porsche AG, and the guy who until a year ago, ran Audi.
I posted the following in August of '01, a simpler and more optimistic time in many ways (search "Piech", if you want to see the ensuing discussion):
I too read with interest, and a little regret, comments from the Rennsport Reunion attendees and others lamenting all the great race cars Porsche USED to build; that NOW the factory is concentrating all it's efforts on a SUV; and that NOW the factory is content with class victories instead of overall victories.
Everybody is wondering if PAG has lost it's soul, or at least traded it for corporate profits.
Maybe I've read about too many conspiracy theories, but I think Wendy Weideking has been blowing smoke at us.
Consider this:
How could the board approve the funds for the Carrera GT, but not the race car? Wouldn't that be equally expensive to develop? Sure they can sell them for $450 Gs each. But think how many 956/962s were sold at comparable prices.
More significantly, when Zuffenhausen had a new open-cockpit car (for Le Mans and the ALMS) already designed and built two years ago, it was suddenly shelved despite tests that were incredibly promising. This project had to be concurrent with the SUV. Why would the board commit funds to bring a new race car that far, and then suddenly shelve it? And don't forget, this project was concurrent with Audi's initial attempts to win Le Mans.
Since then, international sportscar racing has been dominated by the Audi R8, instead of a new Porsche rennwagen.
Now consider this:
Whose the head of VW-Audi? Ferdinand Piech. (yeah the guy who ran TWO major race programs concurrently- development of the 908 iterations AND development of the 917 - for a much smaller Porsche in the late 60's. And the factory did it again a few years later with major programs in Groups 4, 5 AND 6)).
Who's the grandson of Ferdinand Porsche, and Ferry's nephew? Yep, Herr Piech.
Who has a seat on PAG's Board of Directors? Yep, Ferd.
Who controls roughly one-third of PAG stock with his mother? You guessed it.
The guy's definitely got clout.
(BTW, you got to admire, or at least respect, any guy who's not only the father of the 917, but also the father of 12 children by four different women.)
So here's the theory.
My guess is, there was a little boardroom chat between Wendelin and Ferdinand. Ferd said back off your race programs for three years, and let my company dominate endurance racing. Then Porsche can have it all again. (Interestingly, when those years are up, Herr Piech is scheduled to retire.)
When one-third of the voting stock talks, I imagine the chairman listens very carefully.
If you've spent any time watching big companies, the theory plays. And it makes a lot more sense than Wendelin's "All the money and engineering are going to the SUV" story.
(BTW, PAG somehow found the time and resources to design a new sport-bike for Harley recently)
My other guess, and it too is just a guess, is that there are a number of engineers in Zuffenhausen who are very intimate with the R8. After all, blood and voting stock are much stronger than any sense of manufacturer rivalry. Besides, how could Audi have gotten to the very top of world competition in just a couple of years. What were they doing previously -- DTM?
So I suspect Audi will kick butt again next year, then end the R8 program. Shortly thereafter, Porsche will be back, big time.
They'll even be able to scrape together the funds to support two race programs:
To win Le Mans with a new prototype.
And to win Paris-Dakkar with a Cayenne.
"I don't think this has been printed anywhere, but you'll never convince me that the Audi R8 didn't start life as a Porsche; the Joest connection is just too fishy."
I too figure there's a lot of Porsche in the R8. I'd go way past Joest to one of the largest stockholders in Porsche AG, and the guy who until a year ago, ran Audi.
I posted the following in August of '01, a simpler and more optimistic time in many ways (search "Piech", if you want to see the ensuing discussion):
I too read with interest, and a little regret, comments from the Rennsport Reunion attendees and others lamenting all the great race cars Porsche USED to build; that NOW the factory is concentrating all it's efforts on a SUV; and that NOW the factory is content with class victories instead of overall victories.
Everybody is wondering if PAG has lost it's soul, or at least traded it for corporate profits.
Maybe I've read about too many conspiracy theories, but I think Wendy Weideking has been blowing smoke at us.
Consider this:
How could the board approve the funds for the Carrera GT, but not the race car? Wouldn't that be equally expensive to develop? Sure they can sell them for $450 Gs each. But think how many 956/962s were sold at comparable prices.
More significantly, when Zuffenhausen had a new open-cockpit car (for Le Mans and the ALMS) already designed and built two years ago, it was suddenly shelved despite tests that were incredibly promising. This project had to be concurrent with the SUV. Why would the board commit funds to bring a new race car that far, and then suddenly shelve it? And don't forget, this project was concurrent with Audi's initial attempts to win Le Mans.
Since then, international sportscar racing has been dominated by the Audi R8, instead of a new Porsche rennwagen.
Now consider this:
Whose the head of VW-Audi? Ferdinand Piech. (yeah the guy who ran TWO major race programs concurrently- development of the 908 iterations AND development of the 917 - for a much smaller Porsche in the late 60's. And the factory did it again a few years later with major programs in Groups 4, 5 AND 6)).
Who's the grandson of Ferdinand Porsche, and Ferry's nephew? Yep, Herr Piech.
Who has a seat on PAG's Board of Directors? Yep, Ferd.
Who controls roughly one-third of PAG stock with his mother? You guessed it.
The guy's definitely got clout.
(BTW, you got to admire, or at least respect, any guy who's not only the father of the 917, but also the father of 12 children by four different women.)
So here's the theory.
My guess is, there was a little boardroom chat between Wendelin and Ferdinand. Ferd said back off your race programs for three years, and let my company dominate endurance racing. Then Porsche can have it all again. (Interestingly, when those years are up, Herr Piech is scheduled to retire.)
When one-third of the voting stock talks, I imagine the chairman listens very carefully.
If you've spent any time watching big companies, the theory plays. And it makes a lot more sense than Wendelin's "All the money and engineering are going to the SUV" story.
(BTW, PAG somehow found the time and resources to design a new sport-bike for Harley recently)
My other guess, and it too is just a guess, is that there are a number of engineers in Zuffenhausen who are very intimate with the R8. After all, blood and voting stock are much stronger than any sense of manufacturer rivalry. Besides, how could Audi have gotten to the very top of world competition in just a couple of years. What were they doing previously -- DTM?
So I suspect Audi will kick butt again next year, then end the R8 program. Shortly thereafter, Porsche will be back, big time.
They'll even be able to scrape together the funds to support two race programs:
To win Le Mans with a new prototype.
And to win Paris-Dakkar with a Cayenne.
Last edited by Mike in Chi; 12-14-2004 at 07:50 PM.
12-14-2004, 09:25 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by jmorris3
Max, I personally know a few people that are just waiting for 997 Cup to go 'on sale' So as JCP stated, 150k isn't that much for A LOT of people....
I frankly don't think top-level racing is the key for Porsche's long term survival. Personally, I think that the "average" Porsche buyer is probably more concerned with the fact that for 20-30Gs less, he or she can get a 400HP V8. If I were Porsche I would be developing a flat-8. As much as we might laugh at thinking the cars are comparable, there's no doubt in my mind that the upcoming 500hp V-10 M6 with 7 speed sequential trans will steal 911 sales. As ridiculous as the HP wars are...(who the hell needs this kind of power on the street?) sales will likely be predicated on perceived dominance (0-60 times, Fly wheel HP, lateral G numbers etc.) rather than true road worthiness. Assuming the arms race continues, if Porsche is to continue to command a premium over Z06s, M3s, S4 etc, sooner or later the six will have to go or at least go a helluva alot faster.
12-14-2004, 11:35 PM
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That is some interesting information Mike. I knew there were family connections between Audi and PAG but I didn't know the specifics. It could easily be related to that. The R8 came about shortly after the 911 GT1 was shelved.
I hope your conspiracy theory is right. I hope Porsche will have some good competition to mix it up with when they get back in. Maybe the super Z06 that is rumored vs. the Ford GT vs. something from Porsche?
Max
I hope your conspiracy theory is right. I hope Porsche will have some good competition to mix it up with when they get back in. Maybe the super Z06 that is rumored vs. the Ford GT vs. something from Porsche?
Max
12-15-2004, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike in Chi
Jason
"I don't think this has been printed anywhere, but you'll never convince me that the Audi R8 didn't start life as a Porsche; the Joest connection is just too fishy."
I too figure there's a lot of Porsche in the R8. I'd go way past Joest to one of the largest stockholders in Porsche AG, and the guy who until a year ago, ran Audi.
I posted the following in August of '01, a simpler and more optimistic time in many ways (search "Piech", if you want to see the ensuing discussion):
I too read with interest, and a little regret, comments from the Rennsport Reunion attendees and others lamenting all the great race cars Porsche USED to build; that NOW the factory is concentrating all it's efforts on a SUV; and that NOW the factory is content with class victories instead of overall victories.
Everybody is wondering if PAG has lost it's soul, or at least traded it for corporate profits.
Maybe I've read about too many conspiracy theories, but I think Wendy Weideking has been blowing smoke at us.
Consider this:
How could the board approve the funds for the Carrera GT, but not the race car? Wouldn't that be equally expensive to develop? Sure they can sell them for $450 Gs each. But think how many 956/962s were sold at comparable prices.
More significantly, when Zuffenhausen had a new open-cockpit car (for Le Mans and the ALMS) already designed and built two years ago, it was suddenly shelved despite tests that were incredibly promising. This project had to be concurrent with the SUV. Why would the board commit funds to bring a new race car that far, and then suddenly shelve it? And don't forget, this project was concurrent with Audi's initial attempts to win Le Mans.
Since then, international sportscar racing has been dominated by the Audi R8, instead of a new Porsche rennwagen.
Now consider this:
Whose the head of VW-Audi? Ferdinand Piech. (yeah the guy who ran TWO major race programs concurrently- development of the 908 iterations AND development of the 917 - for a much smaller Porsche in the late 60's. And the factory did it again a few years later with major programs in Groups 4, 5 AND 6)).
Who's the grandson of Ferdinand Porsche, and Ferry's nephew? Yep, Herr Piech.
Who has a seat on PAG's Board of Directors? Yep, Ferd.
Who controls roughly one-third of PAG stock with his mother? You guessed it.
The guy's definitely got clout.
(BTW, you got to admire, or at least respect, any guy who's not only the father of the 917, but also the father of 12 children by four different women.)
So here's the theory.
My guess is, there was a little boardroom chat between Wendelin and Ferdinand. Ferd said back off your race programs for three years, and let my company dominate endurance racing. Then Porsche can have it all again. (Interestingly, when those years are up, Herr Piech is scheduled to retire.)
When one-third of the voting stock talks, I imagine the chairman listens very carefully.
If you've spent any time watching big companies, the theory plays. And it makes a lot more sense than Wendelin's "All the money and engineering are going to the SUV" story.
(BTW, PAG somehow found the time and resources to design a new sport-bike for Harley recently)
My other guess, and it too is just a guess, is that there are a number of engineers in Zuffenhausen who are very intimate with the R8. After all, blood and voting stock are much stronger than any sense of manufacturer rivalry. Besides, how could Audi have gotten to the very top of world competition in just a couple of years. What were they doing previously -- DTM?
So I suspect Audi will kick butt again next year, then end the R8 program. Shortly thereafter, Porsche will be back, big time.
They'll even be able to scrape together the funds to support two race programs:
To win Le Mans with a new prototype.
And to win Paris-Dakkar with a Cayenne.
"I don't think this has been printed anywhere, but you'll never convince me that the Audi R8 didn't start life as a Porsche; the Joest connection is just too fishy."
I too figure there's a lot of Porsche in the R8. I'd go way past Joest to one of the largest stockholders in Porsche AG, and the guy who until a year ago, ran Audi.
I posted the following in August of '01, a simpler and more optimistic time in many ways (search "Piech", if you want to see the ensuing discussion):
I too read with interest, and a little regret, comments from the Rennsport Reunion attendees and others lamenting all the great race cars Porsche USED to build; that NOW the factory is concentrating all it's efforts on a SUV; and that NOW the factory is content with class victories instead of overall victories.
Everybody is wondering if PAG has lost it's soul, or at least traded it for corporate profits.
Maybe I've read about too many conspiracy theories, but I think Wendy Weideking has been blowing smoke at us.
Consider this:
How could the board approve the funds for the Carrera GT, but not the race car? Wouldn't that be equally expensive to develop? Sure they can sell them for $450 Gs each. But think how many 956/962s were sold at comparable prices.
More significantly, when Zuffenhausen had a new open-cockpit car (for Le Mans and the ALMS) already designed and built two years ago, it was suddenly shelved despite tests that were incredibly promising. This project had to be concurrent with the SUV. Why would the board commit funds to bring a new race car that far, and then suddenly shelve it? And don't forget, this project was concurrent with Audi's initial attempts to win Le Mans.
Since then, international sportscar racing has been dominated by the Audi R8, instead of a new Porsche rennwagen.
Now consider this:
Whose the head of VW-Audi? Ferdinand Piech. (yeah the guy who ran TWO major race programs concurrently- development of the 908 iterations AND development of the 917 - for a much smaller Porsche in the late 60's. And the factory did it again a few years later with major programs in Groups 4, 5 AND 6)).
Who's the grandson of Ferdinand Porsche, and Ferry's nephew? Yep, Herr Piech.
Who has a seat on PAG's Board of Directors? Yep, Ferd.
Who controls roughly one-third of PAG stock with his mother? You guessed it.
The guy's definitely got clout.
(BTW, you got to admire, or at least respect, any guy who's not only the father of the 917, but also the father of 12 children by four different women.)
So here's the theory.
My guess is, there was a little boardroom chat between Wendelin and Ferdinand. Ferd said back off your race programs for three years, and let my company dominate endurance racing. Then Porsche can have it all again. (Interestingly, when those years are up, Herr Piech is scheduled to retire.)
When one-third of the voting stock talks, I imagine the chairman listens very carefully.
If you've spent any time watching big companies, the theory plays. And it makes a lot more sense than Wendelin's "All the money and engineering are going to the SUV" story.
(BTW, PAG somehow found the time and resources to design a new sport-bike for Harley recently)
My other guess, and it too is just a guess, is that there are a number of engineers in Zuffenhausen who are very intimate with the R8. After all, blood and voting stock are much stronger than any sense of manufacturer rivalry. Besides, how could Audi have gotten to the very top of world competition in just a couple of years. What were they doing previously -- DTM?
So I suspect Audi will kick butt again next year, then end the R8 program. Shortly thereafter, Porsche will be back, big time.
They'll even be able to scrape together the funds to support two race programs:
To win Le Mans with a new prototype.
And to win Paris-Dakkar with a Cayenne.
An entertaining read.
I would like to add just a couple of points.
By the time Audi decided to build the R8, Ferdinand Piëch had passed on from Audi to VW itself, so he was not involved in a hands on sense, which is much to his taste, and may indirectly be responsible for the construction of VW's somewhat bizarre Nardo car and its record attempts.
There is no Porsche in the R8, there might be a little Dellara however. Reinholt Joest was hired to run the race team as the best race team manager available, not only with Porsche but also Opel inthe DTM. Apart from running race cars better than anybody else in the Le Mans Prototype category, his biggest contribution has been the (now dissallowed) integrated gearbox and rear suspension arrangement. This allows the complete rear end to be changed in a handful of minutes, one time it was timed in under 3 minutes. Analysis of previous campaigns revealed that gearbox/suspension/transmission problems were much more influential than other mechanical problems. Replacing suspension members required the whole rear suspension to be re-aligned. With the new arrangement, during testing several rear ends could be set up so that during the race what was put on was ready to race and wasn't going to require repeated stops for adjustment.
Another important insight was the demand that the car be capable of lapping on 3 wheels.
Audi has been building fantastic engines for years, they have raced and rallied successfully in WRC Group B, IMSA, BTCC, ETCC and assorted other series around the world, I think taking 7 Touring Car championships in the same year, once. Do not denigrate DTM, it is very very competitive and receives huge investments from the teams, it doen't take much to be able to run a DTM 'Sprint' car in the 24 Hour Race at the Nuerburgring, they are that well put together and designed.
What Audi and Porsche do have in common is a similar approach to building and racing cars in competition. And when you look at where all the guys went to school, you begin to understand.
As far as the Carrera GT and a race car are concerned, prototype race cars take a lot of resource which Porsche doesn't have enough of. But they had done a lot of work which could easily be turned into the Carrera GT. Expect Porsche to come back to top class racing, possibly in 2006, but it won't have much to do with the Carrera GT in reality, despite what might be put about by the marketing department. If you meet the old race engineers they are smiling, they have 'a project'.
Do not over estimate the influence of Dr Ferdinand Piëch, it is moderated by his older brother who is also on the supervisory board. The Porsche and Piëch families control approximately 50% of the shares in PAG between them, with the Piëch's having slightly more, thanks to an opportune divorce and remarriage. Admiration at somebody for having 12 children by 4 mothers, hmmmm could this guy be a slow learner?
Porsche has a thriving consultancy business, the Harley project was just one of many from this profitable division of the company.
Incidentally, the bulk of the engineers that will have been observing the R8 with interest are in Weissach, not Zuffenhausen, along with the rest of the Racing Department.
Audi will build a new Le Mans prototype car for 2006, maybe it will be a V10, the engine they build for Lamborghini will also be used in top of the line Audi products.
Now that Piëch is only on the Supervisory Board, I have hopes that Audi's Le Mans Quattro will go head to head with the 997 and 998 Porsches, the Directors I spoke to promised it would be a hard edged car, lets see. No significant German manufacturer has ever challenged Porsche since the 911 was launched, odd when you think about it!
R+C
12-15-2004, 12:33 PM
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Nord
I thoroughly enjoyed your post. And welcome to Rennlist. You obviously are knowledgable, and well-connected. I think Rennlist will benefit from your insights whenever you have time to write.
At the time, I knew Piech was at VW and the top of everything. I oversimplified a bit for the sake of brevity (?!?). But I had read that he was still deeply involved in Audi and many pertinent decisions. Hence, my conjecture about what might be going on.
Porsche had already developed the new racecar in Jan '99. It was already turning laps. The money was spent, the heavy lifting done. Pulling the plug at the point was highly unusual, even for PAG.
My intention was not to dis DTM. I think it's a great series, and I wish we had something as strong over here. However, success in one series doesn't always translate to another, and prototype racing is very complex.
Very funny line about Piech being a slow learner.
He too is complex, and I'd love to read a good biography of him one day.
I know the Engineering Consultancy is a thriving profit center, with many outside projects, not just Harley. My point was, and is, the allocation of resources.
A very minor point -- I know racing is in Weissach, but management and marketing are in Zuffenhausen, right? If the Audi Le Mans Quattro street car is indeed a 911 killer, I think it will be the people responsible for the 997 who will be sweating it.
Also, how was the Z-8 viewed over there?
Great to hear the old line race engineers are smiling again. It will be exciting to see what develops.
Again please keep your reports and insights coming.
By the way, are you in the car business?
I thoroughly enjoyed your post. And welcome to Rennlist. You obviously are knowledgable, and well-connected. I think Rennlist will benefit from your insights whenever you have time to write.
At the time, I knew Piech was at VW and the top of everything. I oversimplified a bit for the sake of brevity (?!?). But I had read that he was still deeply involved in Audi and many pertinent decisions. Hence, my conjecture about what might be going on.
Porsche had already developed the new racecar in Jan '99. It was already turning laps. The money was spent, the heavy lifting done. Pulling the plug at the point was highly unusual, even for PAG.
My intention was not to dis DTM. I think it's a great series, and I wish we had something as strong over here. However, success in one series doesn't always translate to another, and prototype racing is very complex.
Very funny line about Piech being a slow learner.
He too is complex, and I'd love to read a good biography of him one day.I know the Engineering Consultancy is a thriving profit center, with many outside projects, not just Harley. My point was, and is, the allocation of resources.
A very minor point -- I know racing is in Weissach, but management and marketing are in Zuffenhausen, right? If the Audi Le Mans Quattro street car is indeed a 911 killer, I think it will be the people responsible for the 997 who will be sweating it.
Also, how was the Z-8 viewed over there?
Great to hear the old line race engineers are smiling again. It will be exciting to see what develops.
Again please keep your reports and insights coming.
By the way, are you in the car business?
12-15-2004, 01:09 PM
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Mike
Thanks for your welcome, its appreciated.
I don't know about all the heavy lifting being done when the new race car project was halted, I think there was some very intensive development outstanding and given all the other requirements, the (mostly) staff resources were not there. Incidently, at about the same time Audi and VW decided they could not get involved in F1 because they could not spare 400 top people, not because of the cost.
Glad to hear you like the DTM, notice how physical it gets. Whilst Opel is pulling out in 2006 we have hopes that another manufacturer will join this coming season.
You know, over here (and Maximillianstrasse in Munich may be the best car spotters' street anywhere), the Z8 exists but doesn't really have any public perception. If you want a flashy open car, then the footballers can drive Murciélagos, aging playboys Ferrari Barchettas and iconoclasts choose a Weissmann or a Spyker convertible. Perhaps lottery winners bought the Z8, it never gave me the feel that it was a good car to drive quickly for a long time either!
And no, I'm not in the car business as such, but I do have a bit to do with some of the race teams at about the level of wheel washer.
R+C
Thanks for your welcome, its appreciated.
I don't know about all the heavy lifting being done when the new race car project was halted, I think there was some very intensive development outstanding and given all the other requirements, the (mostly) staff resources were not there. Incidently, at about the same time Audi and VW decided they could not get involved in F1 because they could not spare 400 top people, not because of the cost.
Glad to hear you like the DTM, notice how physical it gets. Whilst Opel is pulling out in 2006 we have hopes that another manufacturer will join this coming season.
You know, over here (and Maximillianstrasse in Munich may be the best car spotters' street anywhere), the Z8 exists but doesn't really have any public perception. If you want a flashy open car, then the footballers can drive Murciélagos, aging playboys Ferrari Barchettas and iconoclasts choose a Weissmann or a Spyker convertible. Perhaps lottery winners bought the Z8, it never gave me the feel that it was a good car to drive quickly for a long time either!
And no, I'm not in the car business as such, but I do have a bit to do with some of the race teams at about the level of wheel washer.
R+C
12-15-2004, 01:29 PM
#54
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Nord
Without a doubt, the development costs continue once the car is on track, and they can be as big as you want them to be (look at Ferrari F-1). The factory was financially committed to it.
Porsche has built and one from the initial season, if not event (956, GT-1). That's why I said "heavy lifting".
Anything to report on how the 997 selling over there?
Without a doubt, the development costs continue once the car is on track, and they can be as big as you want them to be (look at Ferrari F-1). The factory was financially committed to it.
Porsche has built and one from the initial season, if not event (956, GT-1). That's why I said "heavy lifting".
Anything to report on how the 997 selling over there?
12-15-2004, 08:03 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by Nordschleife
Glad to hear you like the DTM, notice how physical it gets. Whilst Opel is pulling out in 2006 we have hopes that another manufacturer will join this coming season.
12-16-2004, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Geo
MG has already made the announcement.
R+C
12-16-2004, 09:13 AM
#57
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Actually, my mistake. It has not been announced officiall so far as I know. I just saw the headline on Autosport.com. This is what they wrote:
"British manufacturer MG Rover is set to race in next year's DTM touring car series. After championship organiser ITR confirmed earlier this week that a fourth manufacturer will join Mercedes, Audi and Opel, Autosport can reveal that MG plans to run four cars in next year's series."
What is the Chinese and the BMW connection to this?
"British manufacturer MG Rover is set to race in next year's DTM touring car series. After championship organiser ITR confirmed earlier this week that a fourth manufacturer will join Mercedes, Audi and Opel, Autosport can reveal that MG plans to run four cars in next year's series."
What is the Chinese and the BMW connection to this?
12-16-2004, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Geo
What is the Chinese and the BMW connection to this?
DTM cars are thought to 'cost' about EUR 1,000,000 each, you have to sell a lot more cars to justify the coast of taking part.
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12-16-2004, 11:07 AM
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Get a load of this, and where research dollars are going.
PAG is currently studying a hybrid!
Peter Schwarzenbauer of PCNA says it looks like a trend for the future. "We are seriously looking at this technology."
He also confirmed PAG is studying a fourth vehicle line. A decision on that will come in mid 2005.
PAG is currently studying a hybrid!
Peter Schwarzenbauer of PCNA says it looks like a trend for the future. "We are seriously looking at this technology."
He also confirmed PAG is studying a fourth vehicle line. A decision on that will come in mid 2005.
12-16-2004, 11:14 AM
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I would imagine the hybrid is for the Cayenne...unless there is some way to use it to increase performance. I know little about the technology. I would think that VW/Audi would be more interested and that Porsche could just put one of their engines in the Cayenne.
Max
Max