Actually, I believe Ford does or will. They're building a verion of the race version of Mustang. Something like 40Gs. Cool thing is my understanding is that you can actually lease it through Ford credit.

 

Funny.... I remember when they were one and the same thing.

Mercedes was not seen as a maker of enthusiast cars for many many years until they went racing again. Mercedes has at least won recently in F1 and Indy Cars.

 

Funny....

I thought it was the RX-7 which along with the 911 are the two most developed race cars in history.

 

Don't forget the Viper Comp. coupe, along with the Ford. I think Porsche was really the leader in this high end "grassroots" effort, and although the cup cars were originally developed for a professional series, Supercup, they seem to have backdoored into a number of venues in everything from Grand-AM and World Challenge to amatuer club racing. It's a nice model that lets your marque get lots of varied exposure. The other marques have obviously seen it work for Porsche and are now following IMHO. If the model is to have racing exposure for your brand, but let others foot the bill, then it needs to be affordable for the privateer. That's where the new 997 Cup, at it's higher price point, may lose some usage.

 

RJ, I didn't know about Ford doing this. I am not a big Mustang fan, but I think it is great. That is what we really need. Cars like the Elise, 911 GT3, Z06, Miata, EVO RS, Viper Comp, etc are what we really seek.

Geo, I lament the days of a company that makes money simply by entertaining car buffs too. I think that Mazda and Porsche do it the best though. I personally think the Cayenne is hideous, but I can appreciate its addition to the bottom line so that Porsche doesn't fade into the distance. I think the 997 is evidence that Porsche is in tune with the enthusiats as well. They know people didn't like what the bean counters did during the evolution of the 993 to the 996 and they responded.

You are right the RX-7 was a helluva racing platform. The Miata following that. They need to make a track/street version of the RX8. BTW, quit correcting me.

JCP, as cool as the 997 Cup is (and I think it is cool on a level nearing RSR), I kinda wish they had kept it within reach of the amateurs more than the pros. I know the current $150k aint cheap (you don't see me driving one) but it is within reach and it isn't too far from a street GT3. Oh well. I will just have to fork over an extra hundo in a few years.

Max

 

Yeah, there's a little blurb about it in Sports Car this month. You can buy a body in white that is seam welded. Didn't read more than that.

Well, it's not simply entertaining them. It's about making them desire the marque. Racing does this. Ferrari does this well. The "Old Man" didn't care about the road cars other than funding the race cars, but the folks at Fiat understand it only too well and have been capitalizing on their success quite well. The Corvette has improved its image since going racing again. The fact is, Porsche built it's reputation and image on racing. Today it's just banking on an old image and reputation. After a while this will become very old.

First of all, don't blame the bean counters. They don't make the decisions. The product managers and marketing people do. Second, I'm not so sure the 997 is all that exciting (sacrilige that it is to speak that here). I also think the 997 is evidence Porsche is out of touch and they had to back peddle.

All my life I lusted after a 911 variant. No longer. For that money, make mine an M3 or M5, or an AMG Mercedes, or a number of other cars. It just doesn't stir my soul like the old 911s did, especially the 930. Of course, when the 930 was out, the 935 was an all conquering hero, raced to great effect all over the world.

 

I apologize to all accountants. It really isn't the accountants fault, it is the product manager that listens to the accountants and marketing people not the enthusiasts. On the other hand it is really an issue of balance. They have to make money to survive.

I can relate to your sentiments over the 911 although I still like the 997. I wish they would bring back the RS concept at a lower pricepoint. It doesn't need to be a GT3RS. It should actually be cheaper than 911 Carrera. I guess in the same vein as the RS America.

Its funny you mention the M3. I think the current M3 is further from the pinnacle of M3s, the E30 than the 997 is from the 73 RS. I am a huge fan of the 80s M-cars, M3, M5, M6. Those were enthusiast cars on par with 911s. Today's M3 to me is just a slower Z06. It looks great, but that is about it.

This is a cool conversation...by the way, why aren't we running Porsche?

Max

 

That would be great. A 2000 lb. Porsche answer to the Elise, which last I checked, was selling out big time.

 

Some thoughts

It's wonderful that Porsche builds cars that club racers love.

Let's not forget that they have basically always done that. They didn't call the Carrera RSRs Cup Cars 30 years ago, but that's what they in effect were.

That is a big part of the image that's been built by their racing effort. (what are they up to now? 23,000 victories? Most were won on the amateur level.)

But since the 908 in the 60's, they've raced for overall wins. I maintain that all those professional level victories did more to influence the people who buy the majority of Porsches (remember most are NOT the hard core race freaks - pro or grass roots level - that we are).

Yes, Porsche can live off past glories and survive a run without a major race effort. But I believe that they are at the viable end of such a stretch. Much longer, and the image really starts to erode. They become has beens.

Brand managers don't determine what Porsches we get. The marketing department doesn't. The accountants dont. The engineers don't. They all have input. They affect the outcome certainly. But they don't run Porsche. The board does. And the board answers to two families. Piech and Porsche.

Yes, Prototype/top level racing is boring if there is only one strong player. Look how great it was in the 90s. Three Japanese players, three german ones, and a crazy, rich doctor from Atlanta. But even if they are the only player, they still get the PR benefits, just like Audi has.

If PAG was really struggling, the current plan would make sense. Use Cup cars, SuperCup and GT3RSR to keep a racing presence. But they are no longer struggling.


JCP
"Porsche never beat the GT40 head to head."
I'll take that bet. (Major endurance race, right?)

BTW, Porsche had an airborne flyer as well, about the same time.

Max
Actually I'd rather see Sunday Driver racing in Johnny Herbert's R8

 

I can understand the argument that Porsche is running on the fumes of its past successes at the highest levels of sports car racing. One of the contributing factors to that, IMO, is that nobody is stealing the vacuum left behind. Audi simply doesn't count. Not because the R8 is less than spectacular but because Audi doesn't really build sports cars. So how would Porsche remedy this? Knocking off the R8 would only be noticed by Porsche people. Most of the race world wouldn't really care.

I think that if a competitive reminiscent of the 70s,80s, and early 90s were to return, it would be attractive to Porsche. When it really was an arms race between the great minds/manufacturers of racing people were interested. Although Porsche was the most dominant in the post Ferrari era, others were able to compete and at times best Porsche.

Unfortunately, I have no clue how the mess of separate sports car sanctioning bodies we have now could facilitate this. Do the car manufacturers even want this? It seems they would be happier just dominating something for 2-4 years and move on (Vipers then Vettes then Audis). Those companies have basically bought ad space at the top of the podium because of the rules lobbied.

Max

 

Mike in Chi.... I was speaking only of LeMans... (who cares who won the 1000KM at Zandvort)... almost sucked me in on that one though....

Porsche is still about the only car you can drive right off the showroom floor, put race fluid, pads and tires on and track all season without it melting down.... while the current cars are a bit to soft for my taste, they do perform on the track.

GT-S or equivalent is the hot series... manufacturers going head to head with "real" cars with budgets that allow any serious player to play (sure we're talking several million a year for a front line effort... but that is way different from $50M.... )

macnewma.... depressing as it is, $150K is pissing in a puddle for alot of guys... for a near turnkey racecar that's dirt cheap... unfortunatley I have a rule not to buy a car that cost more than my house, so I am doomed to stand around in the paddock adjusting myself and drooling...

Finally, lets not underestimate how hot amature motorsports is... and I include DE in this... this has evolved form a fringe of greasy wackos to a mainstream weekend activity that rivals golf in demographics (if not number of participants)... most performance manufacturers are building cars targeted to this market.... Porsche sells every GT-3 they make....

It used to be "Race on Sunday... sell on Monday.." now it is "Sell on Monday... Race on Sunday"

 

Self adjustment and drooling are freedoms we should not take for granted.

Max

 

JCP

No, I meant major. LM, Daytona, Sebring.

In '68, at Daytona, all the Fords broke, 908 won, even 1-2-3 iirc. There may have been a Sebring one as well.

But you're right, Ford was impressive at Le Mans.

I'd add Elise and 360CS, maybe even the boy racer mustangs, to cars you can drive off the floor and track.

 

There are plenty of cars you can driver from the showroom to the track today. Porsche is not unique in this regard.

 

Porsche is currently going through a rough time with the base sports cars..nearly all car models are in the toilet for sales. Many references have been made that the Cayenne has saved the day. Maybe... However, has anyone ever asked if maybe base car sales are off so much "because" of the Cayenne? There are many unhappy Porsche fans who may have stopped buying the marque due the company's shift in focus to SUV's to "save the company". Brand equity is a strange animal...it doesn't disappear all at one time. However, brand erosion is insidious and gradual, until one day someone comes in with a "brand killer" and, bang, you've lost strategic equity. By far, most Porsche buyers are Cayenne supporters (look at the sales numbers). The real test will be whether these current supportors will be as loyal a few years from now as the previous generation of Porsche sports car supporters. Only time will tell.