Hoosier R3S04 vs. Michelin MPSC
11-04-2004, 11:13 PM
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Hoosier R3S04 vs. Michelin MPSC
A comparison of Hoosiers vs. Michelins in the 993 RS for C class
Background:
245/35 18 front R3S04
285/30 18 rear R3S04
235/40 18 front MPSC
285/30 18 rear MPSC
The car started out optimized for R3S03s. There is no optimum setup for R3S04s, since those tires are unraceable.
I found:
MPSCs are as fast or faster than the Hoosiers (R3S03 or S04) over a single qualifying lap. The reports of the MPSCs being slow are wrong (more on why these reports are common later). Over the course of a 30 lap enduro I estimate I would be 30 seconds ahead at the end with the Michelins. If I choose to run my fastest lap on lap 30, I can do so. I never had a fast lap much past lap 4 on Hoosiers.
MPSCs last roughly 3 times as long as R3S03s. They last about 12 times as long as R3S04s. I consider the tire worn out when enough cord shows that I am afraid to run them.
MPSCs are FAR more consistent over their life. I found less than .5 second difference (1:24 lap) from almost corded to new. I expect that some of the time was my extra effort on new tires. On Hoosiers 3-4 seconds would have been typical.
Useful information about MPSCs:
They need to be hot to work. REALLY hot. The Michelin guy explained to me that he wanted to see 220 degrees in the pit lane. At first I had trouble generating this, since I was so used to babying Hoosiers. I did run them on a 40 degree morning, and the grip was much less. The tires did eventually come up to temp. They are not nearly as bad when cold as Pirelli slicks, however. If you are unwilling or unable to generate 200+ degrees your grip level will likely not be as high.
The tire pressure is critical. I found I needed to run a little higher than the range that Michelin suggested. The grip doesn't seem to change much with pressure, but the feel does, especially on the rear. I am sure this is a preference thing, so other people or cars may be happier at lower pressures.
I wound up running quite a bit more camber than with R3S03s (Again the R3S04 data is useless). I would say that the MPSCs want about the same camber as a Pirelli slick. I thought this was strange considering that the tires were developed for street cars.
The MPSCs have a narrower limit than R3S03s and R3S04. The Hoosiers are easy to drive at large slip angles and the MPSCs are not. The MPSCs are maybe a little tricky at the limit. They feel ok, and give good feedback, but when the limit is reached pretty drastic correction is required. This is fine with an understeering set up. With an oversteering set up like I prefer, you better be ready to do some steering.
The MPSCs changed my car toward understeer. It feels like the rear tires are really 'strong', where the Hoosier rears feel 'weak'. I would like to point out that I don't believe in Hoosier's claim that the 285/30 is not suitable for the rear of a 911. While the tire is undoubtably highly stressed, I detected no difference in feel or life compared to a 305/30 Hoosier. I did tend to run in the higher end of Hoosiers pressure range.
MPSCs have totally changed my approach to club racing. Where before (R3S03s) I had to carefully manage one set of tires to last a race weekend, I can now drive flat out for two entire weekends. This has obviously had a positive impact on my budget. My practice time is much more valuable too, since I can now run 100% without feeling that I am compromising my race by
wearing the tires out.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
Background:
245/35 18 front R3S04
285/30 18 rear R3S04
235/40 18 front MPSC
285/30 18 rear MPSC
The car started out optimized for R3S03s. There is no optimum setup for R3S04s, since those tires are unraceable.
I found:
MPSCs are as fast or faster than the Hoosiers (R3S03 or S04) over a single qualifying lap. The reports of the MPSCs being slow are wrong (more on why these reports are common later). Over the course of a 30 lap enduro I estimate I would be 30 seconds ahead at the end with the Michelins. If I choose to run my fastest lap on lap 30, I can do so. I never had a fast lap much past lap 4 on Hoosiers.
MPSCs last roughly 3 times as long as R3S03s. They last about 12 times as long as R3S04s. I consider the tire worn out when enough cord shows that I am afraid to run them.
MPSCs are FAR more consistent over their life. I found less than .5 second difference (1:24 lap) from almost corded to new. I expect that some of the time was my extra effort on new tires. On Hoosiers 3-4 seconds would have been typical.
Useful information about MPSCs:
They need to be hot to work. REALLY hot. The Michelin guy explained to me that he wanted to see 220 degrees in the pit lane. At first I had trouble generating this, since I was so used to babying Hoosiers. I did run them on a 40 degree morning, and the grip was much less. The tires did eventually come up to temp. They are not nearly as bad when cold as Pirelli slicks, however. If you are unwilling or unable to generate 200+ degrees your grip level will likely not be as high.
The tire pressure is critical. I found I needed to run a little higher than the range that Michelin suggested. The grip doesn't seem to change much with pressure, but the feel does, especially on the rear. I am sure this is a preference thing, so other people or cars may be happier at lower pressures.
I wound up running quite a bit more camber than with R3S03s (Again the R3S04 data is useless). I would say that the MPSCs want about the same camber as a Pirelli slick. I thought this was strange considering that the tires were developed for street cars.
The MPSCs have a narrower limit than R3S03s and R3S04. The Hoosiers are easy to drive at large slip angles and the MPSCs are not. The MPSCs are maybe a little tricky at the limit. They feel ok, and give good feedback, but when the limit is reached pretty drastic correction is required. This is fine with an understeering set up. With an oversteering set up like I prefer, you better be ready to do some steering.
The MPSCs changed my car toward understeer. It feels like the rear tires are really 'strong', where the Hoosier rears feel 'weak'. I would like to point out that I don't believe in Hoosier's claim that the 285/30 is not suitable for the rear of a 911. While the tire is undoubtably highly stressed, I detected no difference in feel or life compared to a 305/30 Hoosier. I did tend to run in the higher end of Hoosiers pressure range.
MPSCs have totally changed my approach to club racing. Where before (R3S03s) I had to carefully manage one set of tires to last a race weekend, I can now drive flat out for two entire weekends. This has obviously had a positive impact on my budget. My practice time is much more valuable too, since I can now run 100% without feeling that I am compromising my race by
wearing the tires out.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
11-04-2004, 11:49 PM
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Chris, I believe that this data transfers well to the lesser powered F class 911;s that many of us drive. Many of us have become so exasperated with Hoosier this year that at Hallet this year I saw a lot of other brands being tried including Toyo and even Avon.
I have always liked the MPSC's for the same reasons of long life that you mention. The initial higher cost is made up in spades with so many more heat cycles than any other brand, Kumho included.
That said, I still think that there is nothing faster available for a one or two lap run like qualifying than a fresh set of Hoosiers, but my budget won't allow for my tires to be replaced every six sessions like the first set of R3SO4's that I bought - can't run 'em when they're corded!
Thanks for your great writeup, it confirms what I've been mulling over about what to run next year - now I'm convinced that I'll go with the Michelins
Mike Quigley
Euro SC in F
I have always liked the MPSC's for the same reasons of long life that you mention. The initial higher cost is made up in spades with so many more heat cycles than any other brand, Kumho included.
That said, I still think that there is nothing faster available for a one or two lap run like qualifying than a fresh set of Hoosiers, but my budget won't allow for my tires to be replaced every six sessions like the first set of R3SO4's that I bought - can't run 'em when they're corded!
Thanks for your great writeup, it confirms what I've been mulling over about what to run next year - now I'm convinced that I'll go with the Michelins
Mike Quigley
Euro SC in F
11-04-2004, 11:52 PM
#3
Chris,
I got to drive road atlanta this last weekend, and it was my second time on mpsc's (1st time was at RA too). I am running 225/17F, 255/17R; w/ -2.3deg F, and -1.8deg R camber. The rep told me target hot pressure was 32-36psi, and target temp of 160-220deg. I started out saturday with a cold pressure of 28 all around, and ended up with 37R 36F hot temp. Towards the end of the session, the rear was getting really loose (my sway bars are set w/ some oversteer bias), especially in T5 and 7. By sunday, I ended up settling on a hot pressure of 33psi, which cured the loose rear end toward sessions end. I did not take any tire temps though. Next time I will experiment with a little higher pressure and warmer temp.
I'm very happy with the tire so far; they seem to have good life left. I've never run hoosiers to compare; only kumho's prior. My last set was corded in under two weekends, albeit at roebling road. And, the mpsc's stay good all session long.
Do you have an opinion on cobalt blue brake pads? I run pagid orange on standard brakes. I needed new rear pads sunday, and discovery got me to try them. They seemed to perform well compared to the pagids.
I got to drive road atlanta this last weekend, and it was my second time on mpsc's (1st time was at RA too). I am running 225/17F, 255/17R; w/ -2.3deg F, and -1.8deg R camber. The rep told me target hot pressure was 32-36psi, and target temp of 160-220deg. I started out saturday with a cold pressure of 28 all around, and ended up with 37R 36F hot temp. Towards the end of the session, the rear was getting really loose (my sway bars are set w/ some oversteer bias), especially in T5 and 7. By sunday, I ended up settling on a hot pressure of 33psi, which cured the loose rear end toward sessions end. I did not take any tire temps though. Next time I will experiment with a little higher pressure and warmer temp.
I'm very happy with the tire so far; they seem to have good life left. I've never run hoosiers to compare; only kumho's prior. My last set was corded in under two weekends, albeit at roebling road. And, the mpsc's stay good all session long.
Do you have an opinion on cobalt blue brake pads? I run pagid orange on standard brakes. I needed new rear pads sunday, and discovery got me to try them. They seemed to perform well compared to the pagids.
11-05-2004, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Premier Motorsp
........
....... They are not nearly as bad when cold as Pirelli slicks, however. ........
.........
I wound up running quite a bit more camber than with R3S03s (Again the R3S04 data is useless). I would say that the MPSCs want about the same camber as a Pirelli slick. I thought this was strange considering that the tires were developed for street cars.
........
Are you saying that cold Pirelli slicks are much worse cold than a MPSC cold? I find this hard to believe given I blow past people who are running MPSC and I am on cold Pirelli slicks. Maybe it's just the drivers :-)
Are you saying that a MPSC likes to have 3 degrees of camber? This seems to be hard to believe as well but if you have to drive the tire very hard to heat it up then the tire deflection will be greater thus wanting more camber to get a good contact patch under cornering. Your toughts on this?
11-05-2004, 02:53 AM
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Burning Brakes
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I have used both the Hoosiers S03's and the Goodyear GSCS Dot " R "s.The S04' 18 inch seem to have problems cording... so I've switched back to the Goodyear's at VIR. Now I wonder why I ever changed to Hoosier's.
Sassco (sp. info's @ office) did... "shave" the GSCS's for me... seemed to improve the grip! The Goodyear's last way longer than the Hoosier's too!
Goodyear Eagle Slicks... last about 90 minutes... not very $$$ cost effective for D E Events! They do " STICK" though!
11-05-2004, 08:13 AM
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Mike---
I too got about six sessions out of S04s, about 100 miles. And I was babying them. I flipped the rears after 3 sessions, other wise they'd have corded on the 4th session. Insanity!
I think the MPSC would equal the S04 on a qualifying lap as long as the temps of both tires were optimum.
I'll bet getting the required temp is tougher on the F car due to less weight and power. Also without ABS I'll bet the cold braking is tricky.
David--
I would recommend setting the pressures where you are comfortable. I am sure that the optimum pressure depends on a huge number of variable.
I have not run Non-Pagid pads in so long I can't offer an opinion on those other pads. The Pagid Orange works so well, and is so cost effective I am not inclined to change.
Kary--
I found Pirelli slicks to be deadly when cold. At temps under 45 degrees they are really scary. I have spun on pace laps with them. This experience was on light powerful cars, however.
I wound up at 3.75 F and 3.25 R camber. I based the camber on tire wear and not temp. This setting wore the tire very evenly.
Trumper--
I know the S04's premature cording problem is not confined to 18s. I have a customer on 17s (D RSA) who is getting faster every event. He cords the inside rear and outside front (can't get enough camber) pretty quickly. Michelin doesn't make the MPSC in 245/40 17 and 275/40 17. The 18s are the most affected because the tire is more stressed.
Slicks work great if you wear out the tire in one long heat cycle. For DE and club racing, where you get many short heat cycles, they are not cost effective.
MJR--
I don't have direct experience with Toyos. I ran a 944-spec on Kumhos against a bunch or cars on Toyos. The Toyo guys seemed slow until they wore the tires a little, and then they could out-grip me easily. The Kumhos crapped out after about 10 hard laps as well. Not really a fair test, since it was my first and only time on Kumhos.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
I too got about six sessions out of S04s, about 100 miles. And I was babying them. I flipped the rears after 3 sessions, other wise they'd have corded on the 4th session. Insanity!
I think the MPSC would equal the S04 on a qualifying lap as long as the temps of both tires were optimum.
I'll bet getting the required temp is tougher on the F car due to less weight and power. Also without ABS I'll bet the cold braking is tricky.
David--
I would recommend setting the pressures where you are comfortable. I am sure that the optimum pressure depends on a huge number of variable.
I have not run Non-Pagid pads in so long I can't offer an opinion on those other pads. The Pagid Orange works so well, and is so cost effective I am not inclined to change.
Kary--
I found Pirelli slicks to be deadly when cold. At temps under 45 degrees they are really scary. I have spun on pace laps with them. This experience was on light powerful cars, however.
I wound up at 3.75 F and 3.25 R camber. I based the camber on tire wear and not temp. This setting wore the tire very evenly.
Trumper--
I know the S04's premature cording problem is not confined to 18s. I have a customer on 17s (D RSA) who is getting faster every event. He cords the inside rear and outside front (can't get enough camber) pretty quickly. Michelin doesn't make the MPSC in 245/40 17 and 275/40 17. The 18s are the most affected because the tire is more stressed.
Slicks work great if you wear out the tire in one long heat cycle. For DE and club racing, where you get many short heat cycles, they are not cost effective.
MJR--
I don't have direct experience with Toyos. I ran a 944-spec on Kumhos against a bunch or cars on Toyos. The Toyo guys seemed slow until they wore the tires a little, and then they could out-grip me easily. The Kumhos crapped out after about 10 hard laps as well. Not really a fair test, since it was my first and only time on Kumhos.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
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11-05-2004, 09:01 AM
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Excellent write-up, thanks very much! I already have a set, and am looking forward to putting them to hard use next year.
Quick question, showing my newbie-ness with regards to really dialing-in the tires (since I've mostly run on cast-off R3SO3's) - what is really the factor in getting adequate temp in the tires? You make mention of how it was difficult at first to get enough temps, and they wanted to be hotter (hooter?)... is this simply a measure of how hard you're pushing the car, or not hard enough? I'm asking because, in addition to some odd combinations of temps and wear noted previously (on the 03's, worn outsides with slightly too much camber shown in the temp data), I've seen what are apparently some consistently high tire temps - wondering if I was just pushing the tires too hard, or if there might be other factors... Thanks!
Quick question, showing my newbie-ness with regards to really dialing-in the tires (since I've mostly run on cast-off R3SO3's) - what is really the factor in getting adequate temp in the tires? You make mention of how it was difficult at first to get enough temps, and they wanted to be hotter (hooter?)... is this simply a measure of how hard you're pushing the car, or not hard enough? I'm asking because, in addition to some odd combinations of temps and wear noted previously (on the 03's, worn outsides with slightly too much camber shown in the temp data), I've seen what are apparently some consistently high tire temps - wondering if I was just pushing the tires too hard, or if there might be other factors... Thanks!
11-05-2004, 03:12 PM
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Great write up, thanks!
Makes me feel very happy with my choice of MPSC's for my track days!
Incase this is of any use to you guys here is a copy of my own tire chart that I've been using to record the wear and heat cycles of my MPSC's.
Incase this is of any use to you guys here is a copy of my own tire chart that I've been using to record the wear and heat cycles of my MPSC's.
11-05-2004, 04:25 PM
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Burning Brakes
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I've had about 50 heat cycles on my MSPCs now, all on the track. They're pretty much shot now, but the first 30 or so were amazing. Had some instructors with me that were outright giddy at how much grip these things have, particularly on tight tracks.
11-05-2004, 05:59 PM
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Thanks, Macfly. I just downloaded it. It's always a great idea to track tire performance w/ track conditions on a consistent basis.
11-05-2004, 07:24 PM
#14
Chris,
Thanks for the write-up. I just got my car and am needing needing new tires. Do you think the car would do better with 265's in fronts?
Paul Fanning
Tyler, TX
95 993 RS clone
Thanks for the write-up. I just got my car and am needing needing new tires. Do you think the car would do better with 265's in fronts?
Paul Fanning
Tyler, TX
95 993 RS clone
11-05-2004, 08:04 PM
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Chris's example lists 235 in the front but we ran 265/285 track only.
Paul, Did you buy Lee's white 993RS ? That car may be a clone but it is more correct than the factory cars!
Paul, Did you buy Lee's white 993RS ? That car may be a clone but it is more correct than the factory cars!