Sanjeevan

O.K here it is, I have only 2 DE's under my belt. So, I am not ready to graduate to the next level yet. BUT,
In my first DE, by sunday I was picking up a lot of speed and was one of the smoothest and thus the fastest cars (my inst. said i was one of the best D students he had). I did my second DE last wknd. at BeaveRun and again by sunday I was cleary the smoothest and fastest car on the track (The instructor was very impressed, said I was excellent and 105 mph to turn 10 was amazing for a D student).
Problems encountered in group D in both occasions were some very slow cars (one corvette that i passed 3 or 4 times in one session, and the traffic these create). Once at BeaveRun there were two fast cars infront of me through turn 9 saw the slow vette-driver at turn 10, had to keep gas through turn 9 (at 104 mph) and was barely able to break in time at turn 10 behind the three cars (I had to slow down to a much lower speed at much less distance because of the slow car).
Now, I definitely want to stay in group D for a while as i explore different tracks, as I will when i go to mid-ohio in oct or nov. But, I want to get back to BeavRun and I think I will LEARN more, and be more COMFARTABLE LEARNING in groupC, what do you guy's think.

frayed

I find that you need to drive at speed to learn, and that slow cars on the track inhibit the learning process as they limit your ability to get into a 'flow' at a comfortable speed. Driving dynamics change as you pick up velocity. . . I may get flamed for my views, but that's what I think.

I moved up and was solo'd in one weekend. You're likely ready to step up as well, at least to the next group, and you'll probably run solo before too long.

I also moved to R comps quickly, after about 4 weekends. Again, this is another controversial move, as the crusty old instructors will insist on eleventy billion track miles before stepping up to track rubber. I disagree, and think that such hard and fast rules are misplaced; it's totally driver dependent. (I used to race Motocross and Hare Scrambles, so driving somewhat loose was natural for me after I learned the basics of driving on pavement)

Good luck. Keep in mind, that once you start running solo, scale things back a bit as you won't have a crutch in the right seat to help you out. I also put a seasoned intructor/racer type in the right seat now and again to work on problem areas and pick up new tricks even as an advanced driver.

Z-man

The short answer: it's all about seat time.

Build up a good number of days with the group you run with - As you drive with more instructors, they will recommend that you be moved up if your driving is up to speed. (no pun intended).

Of course, there are some politics that are unavoidable in the pecking order of run groups, but try not to play those games.

On the other hand, volunteering to work extra at DE events will definately get you noticed, and as such, your 'credentials' may help influence them to move you up. I'm not saying that those who brown-nose are the ones that move up a run group, however, if there are two individuals who display the same ability and both are up for 'promotion,' the one who's a willing helper at the track is more likely to get moved up sooner, by the mere fact that people in charge know who he is!

But I dunno - perhaps there's a magic black box they use as well to determine run groups! (Don't tell my region's track chair I said that!!)

-Z-man.

Z-man

I disagree. You are implying that I cannot learn as much in my 'lowly' 944 as someone who drives a 996TT. That is absurd. Wanna REALLY learn how to drive well on the track? Spend some seat time driving in the rain -- in the wet, it's not about speed (it should NEVER be about the speed, BTW), it's all about proper (smooth) driving technique.
Funny thing: when I was a newbie driver, I too was longing for the day when I can run 'solo.' Now as a driver in the Black run group, I average about 3 instructors PER event! Granted, I don't take them out for every run, but driving with an advanced driver showing me the ropes is definately a tool that should not be discarded quickly.
IMHO, the problem with moving up to R's too quickly is that a new driver doesn't have a feel for how the car handles (is the front washing out? Is the rear sliding? Am I in a 4 wheel drift?) and R-compounds allow the driver to drive faster before feeling these things.
Also: R's tend to loose traction much quicker, giving the driver less notice, whereas street tires will complain sooner about traction loss and will give the driver more of a buffer between "I'm in a controlled slide" and "I'm just a passenger now" car conditions!
A third reason I believe one should wait to move to R's is that R's (just like horsepower) hide a multitude of driver errors. Mess up an apex? No biggie - just put the hammer down and let the grip take to to track out. Not smooth on the throttle? Let the tires save you! Going to R's too soon enables a driver to develop poor driving habits.

A rule of thumb I have regarding R's: if you're driving on street tires, and you're able to keep up with and pass similar cars that are riding on R-compounds, then MAYBE you're ready for the stickies!

Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.

Jim Child

Based on your description it sounds to me like you're ready to move up to the next run group, at least on the tracks you've been to. Next time you go back to a familiar track I would request on your application to be placed in C group (or its equivalent, the next one after novice in that group's hierarchy). Mention the highly positive feedback you received from your instructors, and drop their names on your application. If you still get placed in D, then ask your instructor if he thinks you're ready to move up given your speed vs. the rest of the group. If he agrees he'll plead your case for you.

ltc

If you think you're ready to move up, why not just ask for a check ride with the Region's Chief DE Instructor?

Sanjeevan

In my very first event my instructor on sunday said I could go solo. but I didn't want to do it. At my 2nd DE last sunday I ran solo, and I actually enjoyed it very much.
I have no problems staying in D, but if I will have to be in D for BeaveRun again, i just wouldn't go and pick mid-ohio and be in group D. I personally think i will have a more comfartable time learning for the second time when there are no drivers who are just feeling around and are way too sloooow. Even If I am in groupC there is way tooooooo much to learn, and I may not go solo in groupC for a while, till I am comfartable in GroupC.
Also, from what Z-man is saying, it will also make sense to stay with the same PCA region events so they will get to know me better, and I might do that. Thanks for the replies guys.

Sanjeevan

I didn't see Jims and Lewis answers, But that makes sense. I was actually thinking of doing that, but, was just wondering whether it is appropriate, I didn't want to sound like a total "know-it-all" a$$, after only my 2nd DE.

Mike Buck

Do not go directly to the Chief Instructor and ask for a check ride, that would make you seem like a “know it all”. Use your instructor as a liaison to the CI. They will know best if you are ready to move up . . . they were at your spot at one point time remember.

Do you have a log book? My PCA region started handing them out to students right around my first DE. This has been a valuable resource in my advancement.

forklift

I agree with this 100% and it mirrors my experience so far. One thing I did do differently that I have been reluctant to post is that I started (yes my first* ((or fifth?) DE in 10/03) on R tires. My car came with Yoko 0-32s and I really did not want to replace them, and did not need to. I could feel what the car was doing even though there were no squeals. I think the whole wait on the R tire thing is a bit overdone as well. I know I should have started on streets, but I didn't and got moved up in my local DEs very quickly as well. I have spoke to a few racers about this and they agree, but I know that is not the consensus on this board by a long shot. If you feel you have good car control at the limit and can feel what the car is doing, I say go for it. That might happen in two DEs it might be 42.

I also agree with learning at speed, or a speed you are comfortable with. The line makes more sense this way. I would like to think most people have a realistic view of their driving after a few DEs. I was pretty nervous driving in the advanced group (Group 2 out of 2) in my third DE, but adapted quickly and it helped more than hurt. Just don’t be a victim of Red Mist when you do advance, drive your line at your pace and increase that pace at a rate you are comfortable.

Bombs away.....

(*Note: This excludes four DEs I did in ’98)

Bill Gregory

When the series or event instructors feel you're ready to move to the next group, that is, you demonstrate the appropriate skill level, attitude, attention to safety, etc to drive in the next group. You might ask if there are any organization guidelines for the group you drive with. PCA CVR and NCR regions, for example, put together a set of guidelines, which can be viewed at http://www.ncr-pca.org/drivers-ed/progression.htm

forklift

At the same time I agree with this. I also think this also has to do with the personality of your instructor. Some are much more aggressive than others and have different perspectives. I thought it was interesting at one DE that my instructor noted how well I had heel/toe down and later that day I had a different one ride who said I just needed to work on heel/toe! Generally though they (newly we) agree on general skill level.

Sanjeevan

Bill, thanks for that link, it was very helpfull. "anticipates the effects of a slower car in front", i learned this the difficult way from my example above (but, made worse my this very slow car that came from nowhere as he was so slow, and was three cars infront of me). "Drives at an approprate pace for the group", very difficult to do in group D, where some cars very slooow. "demonstrates smooth inputs and finesse", I think this is a skill that has an infinite amount to grow, and I'll never finish learning to be smoother and improve finesse. I am confident I qualify in all other criterias. So, I think what I may do is to pick different tracks with-in a couple of event sponsors, stick with groupD, and once I graduate to C, try to repeat tracks.

Bob Rouleau

Jeeva - I'm glad you read the guidelines for promotion Bill provided. How do you rate yourself against them? Your instructor would be the first one to suggest you move to a higher group if you meet the criteria. Buried in the language about on track behavior is an implied notion about how aggressive a driver is. If for example you are determined to be the fastest car on track, an instructor might leave you in a slower run group to prevent your trying to keep up to faster cars and more experienced drivers - perhaps with unpleasant consequences. Stepping up from the novice group, there is a big difference in speed.

I'd suggest you ask your instructor if he thinks you are ready to move up. I would NOT bug the CI about a check ride unless your region requires his approval. Most regions only require a CI sign off to promote a driver to the highest level.
FWIW, compare my signature to the name on the promotion criteria you read

Best,

Sanjeevan

OH! Good to talk to the author himself , I am weak in the following three points, and my previous comments on them.

1)"anticipates the effects of a slower car in front", i learned this the difficult way from my example above (but, made worse my this very slow car that came from nowhere as he was so slow, and was three cars infront of me).
2)"Drives at an approprate pace for the group", very difficult to do in group D, where some cars are very slooow. (I mean i don't need to brake at all following my line through corners, behind some of these cars)
3)"demonstrates smooth inputs and finesse", I think this is a skill that has an infinite amount to grow, and I'll never finish learning to be smoother and improve finesse.
I am confident I qualify in all other criterias.
So, I think what I may do is to pick different tracks with-in a couple of event sponsors, stick with groupD, and once I graduate to C, try to repeat tracks.[/QUOTE]