@ANGST , you are asking the right questions and doing the right things.

Alot of great advice on this thread. Here is another perspective from a guy thats been doing it for 21 years and instructing for 15.

Everybody has a different curve in progression. So follow what works for you. Nothing written down that says you need to advance to the next group within a certain time frame. Comes down to what you are comfortable with.

You will know when its time to go to the next run group, when you are faster than everybody else in your run group and you are NOT on the ragged edge.

Seat time is everything in learning the skills to balance the car around the track to carry more speed. But importantly, as you are developing these skills, things start to move slower around you, you recognize the rhythym and dance, and you become more aware of what's in front of you, what's behind you, as well as where you are and/or should be on the track.

For sure, instruction is necessary at all levels. Make friends with the instructors, see if one will come out with you for a session to help refine what you are doing, and even more importantly, see if you can go out with them to see things from a different perspective and learn.

The great news about HPDE is it will be here every year going forward, so there is no constraints for developing your skills or moving to a faster run group in a specific span of time. We can do this until we can't get in and out of the car.

Lastly, you have a very fast car. To your point a number of posts ago, consider moving backwards in technology by getting a car without nannies and just a LSD. The reason is you will be forced to learn how to balance the car without the nannies. The newer Porsche models are incredible pieces of machinery that are very fast, with incredible nannies that make up for your mistakes. If you truly want to develop your driving skills to the fullest, consider an earlier model that will force you to drive it and correct for your mistakes.

Hope it helps.

 

I did my first 2 HPDEs in an 1993 e36 sedan with all season tires, then the next few in an S550 mustang . I know the Cayman is much more forgiving then either of them ... I once exited the pits in the Mustang like a cars and coffee youtube

 

We obviously have no idea how you drove at VIR, WGI, or NJMP, but in general, that seems pretty valid. Once they sign you off in white, you're going to be able to just show up and drive on your own. If you go out in white at WGI having only been there once, how will you drive? As well as you drive Summit as a blue student who is ready to be promoted to white? Or will you drive it like the second time you ever drove at Summit? And when you show up as a white driver to a track you've never been to before, have you developed the ability to learn the new track and quickly be on pace after a couple of sessions or maybe the first day, or will you be the guy who can't get it figured out all weekend? I can see the club wanting to make sure that you can drive in white anywhere before signing you off. Sounds like you've developed solid skills driving at Summit Point, now show that they transfer. I wouldn't be surprised if you go to WGI or VIR in blue and your instructor solos you after a day because you're demonstrating that you have the pace with limited days at that track, that they'll take you out to drive in white for a session that weekend. And if they don't solo you at all, ask what the gap is.

 

I actually did pretty well at WGI , TONS of sim time helped . I don't think that is factored in though.

 

Probable translation. I think something about your driving is giving them the heebie jeebies.

If you've been stuck wtih an instructor forever there is something up, or it is a very very **** group you're running with for sign offs. Drivers will get signed off by instructors when the instructor feels they're fine. It is also assumed that at a certain point regardless of whether the instructor signed off or not previously, the organizer will just sign someone off based on the amount of events they did without any info saying not to. There is a 3rd category that falls into the instructor specifically recommending not signing off on the student and strongly recommending an instructor.

It is quite possible you are falling into that 3rd category based on that comment.

The drivers I have said do not solo are the ones that are inconsistent with their driving, especially if they have sessions that go backwards in skill significantly. Also, if I have to remind to do basic things, like uh, brake. It takes a long time to evaluate someone like that to make sure they've overcome their problems to the point where tehy are safe to solo, and honestly if someone lacks focus or their mind wanders randomly they probably don't belong on a track. Thats the big worry for me.

 

Buy a faster car.

 

Damn.

 

I thought we were buying two cup cars to solve problems.

 

Pace and consistency are extremely important in uninstructed run groups. You’re losing another set of eyes/ears, and other solo drivers out on track start relying on another key element, and thats the predictability of other drivers (I study everyone Im on track with on the first few sessions to figure out their tendencies, if I dont know them already). Unpredictably in the lower run groups is a real thing, though you need to find yourself in those situations so you can learn how to manage them properly, whether at fault, or by the doing of another. Advanced run groups aren’t flawless by any means, while the faster pace requires one to make quick decisions to keep themselves, and others on track safe by adjusting accordingly. There is someone in my home region that has a white wristband that drives like he/SHE is a green student.. slow, inconsistent inputs, never uses the entire track, takes 1-2 turns to get cars by, all while creating conga lines.. ask me how this person got advanced to White and is being allowed to stay there, ask me why this person wants to stay in White when they cant keep two hands on the wheel bc they’re constantly being passed, and it scares them… I have no answers for any of the above, and its clear how unsafe this person makes each session.

I feel like you should work on being in the top percentile pace wise in every event you run in Blue before you request a checkout into White. You dont need to be at the middle-high end of White pace to advance, and I would say being one of the quickest in Blue is more than enough, bc the advancement to White should naturally unlock some more skills you didn’t currently have, as you surround yourself with more experienced drivers. Ps.. Im not instructor, I was in my first track season last year, 15 days in Green (which was a hot mess for me to navigate!), advanced to White at my first event this year by one region, followed by the same promotions with two others.. now I am being evaluated for Black, while getting the taste and feel for this group by mentors that are donating their time to me. All regions evaluated consistency as their #1 focus, and the pace that followed was the clear indicator to the CI’s as to which run group they felt I belonged in. You should keep a solid pace in advanced run groups, and on the flip side, there also comes a time where ones faster pace can be disruptive to slower drivers in their current group (green/blue), all while hindering your ability to work on your skills consistently lap after lap due to the impassable traffic (ask me how I know!). You should be promoted to White when this time comes.

Lastly, if you haven’t already. Invest in making sure you have 6pts for the passenger. Once in White, you will want to make sure you attract as many instructors as possible to sit right seat with you, so your skills dont go stagnant, and not having the proper safety in advanced groups might turn some away.

 

PCA Potomac is somewhat conservative about promotion to White because it means you’re solo at every track. Ask your instructors what you need to do to be ready for White, then work towards doing that. They want to see drivers progress, not be held unnecessarily in Green or Blue.

 

I’m the Chief Instructor for a for-profit group, and if taken literally as to why they don’t think you are ready for solo at this track, this feedback makes little sense. There’s no rule that says you have to run at other tracks. I’m sure there are people that progress up to advanced levels all while driving at just one track.

IMO they are running out of ways to tell you that you don’t yet have the pace, technique, and/or awareness to drive solo. If you’ve been with multiple instructors and none of them have suggested you think about moving up, there’s likely a valid reason.

I have absolutely seen people not pass a check ride because they were driving too conservative. You are much better off not getting a clean lap because you are getting held up in a slower group versus not getting a clean lap because you are constantly driving in the rear view mirror in a faster group, afraid of holding other people up.

It seems like your instructors feel like the above is what would happen if you tried a check ride into the next group, so moving from your 7/10 to 8/10 might be required. If someone was safe, good technique, good awareness and was just happy driving at a slower pace, AND the newly-solo drivers shared the track with the beginners with instructors I’d be fine letting them go solo. But if that next group up was just solo drivers that had a much faster pace, I’d certainly think twice about advancing that driver.

Maybe share a video here for some quick feedback?

 

Just a general point on human perception and performance. Angst is asking about awareness versus risk tolerance as if they're separate things. They're not. They are very closely intertwined.

Having excellent three dimensional awareness makes everything slow down in the driver's mind. He/she can then safely push much harder at the same perceived risk.

As I went through blue to white and now black, it was largely a matter of perception improving. With seat time, everything slowed down in my head even though speeds were increasing and passing was getting closer. Things that once required conscious thought to see became intuitive. That in turn made my driving inputs easier.

Put another way, things that seemed 'risky' when I was beginning are now routine. Awareness lowered the amount of perceived risk. What felt like 10/10 when I was in green now feels like a parade lap. I know that this is iterative and my current 10/10 would feel like a parade lap to an experienced racer.

This is not just an HPDE thing. I went through the same evolution in other risk sports and in a fast paced profession part of which required time sensitive physical performance. Experience breeds improved perception which breeds calm which breeds better performance.

It sounds like Angst's instructors don't think he's there yet for white. Not for me to say if they're right or wrong. But, I think he may be reading too much into the verbiage of the write-ups and seeing a false dichotomy between awareness and risk tolerance as his prime opportunities.

+1 for Angst to post a lap for the experts to comment. Even better, if possible, to hire a coach to review some video and data.

 

 

Take two Cups and call me in the morning is a cure-all for most of life's problems.

 

Your group is one of the few that requires a check ride for the most experienced drivers who do not have experience AT THAT TRACK. I used to think that was odious, but now, maybe not so much. Probably a good idea.

In general, both drivers and instructors "grading" of tenths is completely variable and subjective. That's the problem I have with it. As a matter of fact, instructors in general vary so widely in their own skill and experience, that it can't help but be any other way, unless they're following something like SLIP.

My tenths talk goes something like this:

When I describe "tenths,” or the system of assigning a relative speed, level of concentration or demonstration of car physics on-track to someone, it usually follows these definitions.

3/10 is driving on a flat, straight and level road with no distractions.

4/10 is driving on a gently curving Interstate with low traffic density at a higher rate of speed than at 3/10.

5/10 is driving quickly, but efficiently and at the speed limit on the street, more concentration required due to more "hazards" present.

6/10 is a standard DE lap or an out lap early on in a race weekend, for me. The purpose may be to re-familiarize myself with the race track, enjoy a relaxed lap or just "cruise" around and, in particular, designed to take NOTHING out of the car. This is also the level of driving quickly on the Interstate with a fair bit of traffic at higher speeds.

7/10 is a more aggressive DE level, designed to begin to "move the car around" and just a little more taxing on the car. Also, 7/10 can be an out lap later on in a race weekend, usually the result of greater confidence and familiarity. Relatively wide variation in lap time depending on traffic and concentration.

8/10 is an easily sustained level, requiring high levels of concentration, generally attained after the first few laps of a race or enduro when the dust settles and you slide into driving quickly and accurately, but are not locked in a battle that is external to you and your car. The car is sliding, but only at the beginning or the end of a corner and not at all corners and not on all laps. Generally laps are within .8-1.5 seconds apart and relatively consistent. This is the level I am most comfortable taking people around the track. Plenty of "headroom" and margin for error or changeable track conditions.

9/10 is driving pretty hard, but is sustainable, repeatable and the driver is still relatively accurate in their placement of the car. The car is now sliding much of the time, the driver is focused on catching someone or staying ahead of someone but is maintaining control and discipline of their own mind and of the car. At this point, the driver is using most of the width of the road, but not much curbing, and is focusing on drawing large arcs with the path of the car. The rhythm is such that the lap times are generally within .2 -.8 seconds apart, barring traffic or mistakes. This is my limit for one or two "hot laps" with someone riding with me.

9.5/10 is driving hard. More sliding, slightly quicker laps still than at 9/10. Less margin for error, a lot more work being done by the car. The driver is now "guiding" the car on a path selected well in advance. The car is sliding from turn-in, through the apex and is using the entire width of the paved track, plus the inside curbs. Cannot generally be sustained for more than five or six laps. I would not drive a car at this level with a passenger in it...

10/10 is when the skill level of a substantially experienced and supremely confident driver meets the competence level of the car nearly perfectly. The car is sliding nearly the entire lap. Slip angles of 7-12 degrees (DOT radials, less on radial slicks) are sustained through the entire length of most of the corners. The entire width of the road, plus the inside and outside (if available) curbing or pavement extensions are used, every corner, every lap. The previous lap is at 9 or 9.5/10 so that the "hot" lap is started at the greatest possible speed and with the highest possible concentration.

Typically, I drive 10/10's for one or two qualifying laps and my first few laps of the race to build a "gap" to the rest of the competition. I also drive 10/10's to experiment with changes made to the car or to evaluate tires in practice, not to mention putting in a "flyer" to achieve the psychological advantage of being on or near the top of the time sheet <grin>.

I may not drive 10/10’s more than a few laps during the weekend, but I pick and choose the time to do it. I feel like the car and I are balanced on a tightrope and I am constantly making tiny little corrections to adjust it's trajectory, with each correction making a difference... I'm not sure this level can be sustained more than two or three laps at a time. In order to be successful at the highest level of most organized competition, you must be able to drive at this level.

11/10's is when your talent runs out! <very big grin>