HPDE Advancement Philosophy: Awareness vs. Risk Tolerance
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HPDE Advancement Philosophy: Awareness vs. Risk Tolerance
This isn’t a complaint or a call-out — just something I’ve been thinking about after talking with an instructor in my PCA region, and I’m curious what others have experienced.
I’ve been wondering if my choice not to run my car at 8/10ths or higher every lap is part of why I’m still in PCA Potomac’s Blue run group. My pace is fine — I mostly give point-bys to genuinely faster cars, not slower cars being driven well — and I know I could be going faster if I pushed harder.
An instructor mentioned the possibility that pushing your car right to the edge might be an unwritten prerequisite for moving up. That got me thinking. I also know I could improve on my consistency, so this might not be the only reason I’m still in Blue.
I know HPDE isn’t racing — it’s about building skill, safety, and awareness. PCA Potomac in particular has an excellent safety culture, which I value. But if moving up requires showing that you can (and will) drive at the limit, then we’re also measuring risk tolerance alongside driving ability.
I’d like to hear from instructors and multi-organization drivers: should advancement be based on demonstrated skill, awareness, and control under different conditions, or is regularly exploring the car’s limits an essential step?
If you’ve ever been told to “push harder” to move up, how did you handle it?
This post was AI-assisted for grammar and structure, but the thoughts are 100% mine. If it reads well, that’s the AI. If it makes you mad, that’s me.
I’ve been wondering if my choice not to run my car at 8/10ths or higher every lap is part of why I’m still in PCA Potomac’s Blue run group. My pace is fine — I mostly give point-bys to genuinely faster cars, not slower cars being driven well — and I know I could be going faster if I pushed harder.
An instructor mentioned the possibility that pushing your car right to the edge might be an unwritten prerequisite for moving up. That got me thinking. I also know I could improve on my consistency, so this might not be the only reason I’m still in Blue.
- If I had an $8K NB Miata, I’d be wringing it out every session without much worry beyond pride and repair time.
- My Cayman GTS is worth 10x that and makes far more power. A small mistake in it can become a big (and expensive) problem in a hurry.
- My HPDE priorities are smoothness, consistency, and predictability — not driving at the ragged edge in every corner.
I know HPDE isn’t racing — it’s about building skill, safety, and awareness. PCA Potomac in particular has an excellent safety culture, which I value. But if moving up requires showing that you can (and will) drive at the limit, then we’re also measuring risk tolerance alongside driving ability.
I’d like to hear from instructors and multi-organization drivers: should advancement be based on demonstrated skill, awareness, and control under different conditions, or is regularly exploring the car’s limits an essential step?
If you’ve ever been told to “push harder” to move up, how did you handle it?
This post was AI-assisted for grammar and structure, but the thoughts are 100% mine. If it reads well, that’s the AI. If it makes you mad, that’s me.
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Aug 27, 2025, 02:28 PM
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Hi Angst,
Your post has led to an enlightning discussion. I would like to add something that is at the core of the issue - it is your relationship with the "limit", not your instructors. When I look back at my track driving experiences, there were several breakthroughs, after long periods of trying to improve. I guest that makes me normal. And, I too have a great sense of self preservation. But when I look back at the breakthroughs, it truly boiled down to my relationship and comfort level with approaching, being at, and exceeding the LIMIT.
For me, there were 3 distictive levels of comfort with the limit. I started driving in 2014 as a Novice and remained in the first level until about 2020. 6 years of getting faster, more experienced but still in my first level of comfort with the limit - which was I pushed the car as hard as I could until I felt it slipping, then pulled back. My first level of comfort with the limit was I wanted to approach it but not ever exceed it. I would become visable shaken if the car wiggled or I felt the traction control kicking in. Until one day, in one particular corner, I started to exceed the limit on the regular and realized I did not die, or hurt the car. Signs you are at this stage is when you feel light in your stomach if the tires start to slip.
So, from about 2020 - to 2024, I become comfortable with the car going to, and sometimes exceeding the limit of grip. I learned tricks to catch it so when the rear end wiggles, it does not become a full blown spin. When I'm turning into corners to the left, I'm thinking about opening up to the right. If I don't have to catch it by opening the wheel, then I'm going too slow and leaving a lot of the table. I can only know if I am "at the limit", if the tires start to loose grip. One trick I do is I take a line that is medium agressive to an apex, and then I tighten up to a more agressive angle mid-corner until i feel the tires slip, then I KNOW I'm at the limit. Which by the way, also means that when I open my hands to catch it, I can in most cases use that moment to get back on the throttle because I have already started opening up. I am now comfortable in most corners exceeding the limit so long as I am aware and ready to catch it. Signs you are at this phase is you become keenly aware, look for, and expect a little tire slip.
The 3rd phase of my relationship at the limit is where I'm at now. I am still not comfortable with this level. I see racers moving their hands so much that I realize they are intentionally trying to balance on a knifes edge between "over and at, at and over" the limit at all phases of the corner. I also realize that this may be too extreme for DE and driving a nice street car. But, who knows I can honestly say I felt the same way when I was in 1st phase, and 2nd phase with my relationship with the limit. I was scared until I wasn't. Maybe thats the way I will be when I master this phase.
So my advise is the same advice I received from a driving coach: Practice getting to the limit in corners with the least consequences and force yourself outside of your comfort zone - go 10/10s or even 11/10ths. I predict you will learn to love being in control of a car that has exceeded the limit, just like you now love driving at 8/10ths. Its all about your relationship with the limit. I hope I can say that about my relationship in this 3rd phase of driving one day too.
Your post has led to an enlightning discussion. I would like to add something that is at the core of the issue - it is your relationship with the "limit", not your instructors. When I look back at my track driving experiences, there were several breakthroughs, after long periods of trying to improve. I guest that makes me normal. And, I too have a great sense of self preservation. But when I look back at the breakthroughs, it truly boiled down to my relationship and comfort level with approaching, being at, and exceeding the LIMIT.
For me, there were 3 distictive levels of comfort with the limit. I started driving in 2014 as a Novice and remained in the first level until about 2020. 6 years of getting faster, more experienced but still in my first level of comfort with the limit - which was I pushed the car as hard as I could until I felt it slipping, then pulled back. My first level of comfort with the limit was I wanted to approach it but not ever exceed it. I would become visable shaken if the car wiggled or I felt the traction control kicking in. Until one day, in one particular corner, I started to exceed the limit on the regular and realized I did not die, or hurt the car. Signs you are at this stage is when you feel light in your stomach if the tires start to slip.
So, from about 2020 - to 2024, I become comfortable with the car going to, and sometimes exceeding the limit of grip. I learned tricks to catch it so when the rear end wiggles, it does not become a full blown spin. When I'm turning into corners to the left, I'm thinking about opening up to the right. If I don't have to catch it by opening the wheel, then I'm going too slow and leaving a lot of the table. I can only know if I am "at the limit", if the tires start to loose grip. One trick I do is I take a line that is medium agressive to an apex, and then I tighten up to a more agressive angle mid-corner until i feel the tires slip, then I KNOW I'm at the limit. Which by the way, also means that when I open my hands to catch it, I can in most cases use that moment to get back on the throttle because I have already started opening up. I am now comfortable in most corners exceeding the limit so long as I am aware and ready to catch it. Signs you are at this phase is you become keenly aware, look for, and expect a little tire slip.
The 3rd phase of my relationship at the limit is where I'm at now. I am still not comfortable with this level. I see racers moving their hands so much that I realize they are intentionally trying to balance on a knifes edge between "over and at, at and over" the limit at all phases of the corner. I also realize that this may be too extreme for DE and driving a nice street car. But, who knows I can honestly say I felt the same way when I was in 1st phase, and 2nd phase with my relationship with the limit. I was scared until I wasn't. Maybe thats the way I will be when I master this phase.
So my advise is the same advice I received from a driving coach: Practice getting to the limit in corners with the least consequences and force yourself outside of your comfort zone - go 10/10s or even 11/10ths. I predict you will learn to love being in control of a car that has exceeded the limit, just like you now love driving at 8/10ths. Its all about your relationship with the limit. I hope I can say that about my relationship in this 3rd phase of driving one day too.
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An instructor mentioned the possibility that pushing your car right to the edge might be an unwritten prerequisite for moving up.
I’d like to hear from instructors and multi-organization drivers: should advancement be based on demonstrated skill, awareness, and control under different conditions, or is regularly exploring the car’s limits an essential step?
This post was AI-assisted for grammar and structure, but the thoughts are 100% mine. If it reads well, that’s the AI. If it makes you mad, that’s me.
As for what that instructor told you, I violently disagree. Pushing to the edge in a DE? No.
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This does not answer the question, but relative pace, using MORE of the demonstrated capability of the car, is a criteria that most of the marque club and for-profit track day and DE programs have used to graduate drivers from one run group to another, stated or not. At least, that’s been my observation for a couple decades, more so now. That is supported by the detailed, objective student skill valuations in post event evaluations by instructors and in SLIP, which I think is the most detailed assessment of run group best execution of fundamental skills.
I’m troubled and concerned by your description of what is required as driving “right to the edge” or “drive to the limit,” as if that is a finite, fixed and incredibly risky thing to do. I also believe that your assessment of 8/10 driving could be very different in pace in your car than another driver’s 8/10 in your car or a similar car.
Before I go on, it’s ALWAYS the most important thing for YOU to progress and drive within your desired risk/benefit ratio, not to drive to the level that ignores that and that you perceive is someone else’s goal for you. Your trophy is your shiny car driven back onto the trailer or out the front gate at the end of the weekend, period.
I know for a fact that regularly exploring (probing) INCREMENTALLY and IN SMALL STEPS the car’s limits IS a demonstrated skill set, one not all drivers are capable of on a regular basis. As a matter of fact, few truly do. While awareness and maintaining control under different conditions is equally important, exploring YOUR limits is a gradual and incremental way is part and parcel of advancing performance.
There is no car that cannot be driven quicker by someone else. Almost every driver I’ve ever interacted with, tens of thousands over decades, just wants to improve. I would urge drivers to view your question not as an either/or, but rather as a combination of all things that are necessary to advance performance and demonstrate skill.
I would be willing to bet that your 8/10 is quite a bit quicker than it used to be. I would hope so. These are not static measures, they’re relative and they change with the addition of knowledge, comfort, confidence, mostly born of experience. Good luck answering that question for you, because your balance is all that matters.
I’m troubled and concerned by your description of what is required as driving “right to the edge” or “drive to the limit,” as if that is a finite, fixed and incredibly risky thing to do. I also believe that your assessment of 8/10 driving could be very different in pace in your car than another driver’s 8/10 in your car or a similar car.
Before I go on, it’s ALWAYS the most important thing for YOU to progress and drive within your desired risk/benefit ratio, not to drive to the level that ignores that and that you perceive is someone else’s goal for you. Your trophy is your shiny car driven back onto the trailer or out the front gate at the end of the weekend, period.
I know for a fact that regularly exploring (probing) INCREMENTALLY and IN SMALL STEPS the car’s limits IS a demonstrated skill set, one not all drivers are capable of on a regular basis. As a matter of fact, few truly do. While awareness and maintaining control under different conditions is equally important, exploring YOUR limits is a gradual and incremental way is part and parcel of advancing performance.
There is no car that cannot be driven quicker by someone else. Almost every driver I’ve ever interacted with, tens of thousands over decades, just wants to improve. I would urge drivers to view your question not as an either/or, but rather as a combination of all things that are necessary to advance performance and demonstrate skill.
I would be willing to bet that your 8/10 is quite a bit quicker than it used to be. I would hope so. These are not static measures, they’re relative and they change with the addition of knowledge, comfort, confidence, mostly born of experience. Good luck answering that question for you, because your balance is all that matters.
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www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
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Whenever I do a checkup ride I always tell the student that I am looking for smoothness, hitting all the apexes and situational awareness over outright speed.
While driving at a good speed relative to the car you are driving is important to getting promoted, the speed is more of a result from the above, rather than something obtained on its own.
While driving at a good speed relative to the car you are driving is important to getting promoted, the speed is more of a result from the above, rather than something obtained on its own.
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My advice would be drive with the groups that u feal comfortable with. Everyone has a different priority when on the track and sometimes as u grow u no longer mesh with the certain groups. There r a few groups that will no longer get my money and thats just part if the process.
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Last edited by quickboxster; Aug 11, 2025 at 02:43 PM.
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No.. At Summit Point , the instructor is more of a distraction almost for me . I'd like to optimally be able to grab someone for my right seat once or twice a weekend maybe . And while I've never felt pressured by 90%+ of my instructors , I find not having one and being able to work at my own pace can be less stressful .
Last edited by ANGST; Aug 11, 2025 at 02:45 PM.
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I don't think anyone can really drive to their potential if the money matters. So, fix that. Either insure the thing or buy something you don't care about.
It's not about being reckless, it's about being willing to do the thing.
It's not about being reckless, it's about being willing to do the thing.
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It is insured, and in reality it would not hurt me financially to ball it up, but I'd care , it still is probably 30MPH faster into turn one than an NB Miata
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First thought is it doesn't sound like anything is wrong with your current run group. Doesn't seem like you're being held up, there are genuinely faster cars, you're giving point-bys.
Maybe unwritten, but my region does factor in lap times for run group assignment, along with all of the other prerequisites. I wouldn't say it's a question of your individual risk tolerance as much as it is session flow, creating as few bottlenecks as possible. I think it's wise.
Outside of PCA I run with orgs that take into account only experience and awareness. And even where there are plenty of both, massive pace disparities don't work to anyone's advantage in DE setting.
If I was transplanted into that $8k miata you mention, I'd happily move down to any run groups that were a better fit for its pace. I don't need or want to be out there with the 6 x 992 Cups just because I have 15 years experience.
Maybe the instructor was just suggesting that pushing your car more, into a lap time window that would work well within the faster groups, would be the only way to comfortably move you up.
Maybe unwritten, but my region does factor in lap times for run group assignment, along with all of the other prerequisites. I wouldn't say it's a question of your individual risk tolerance as much as it is session flow, creating as few bottlenecks as possible. I think it's wise.
Outside of PCA I run with orgs that take into account only experience and awareness. And even where there are plenty of both, massive pace disparities don't work to anyone's advantage in DE setting.
If I was transplanted into that $8k miata you mention, I'd happily move down to any run groups that were a better fit for its pace. I don't need or want to be out there with the 6 x 992 Cups just because I have 15 years experience.
Maybe the instructor was just suggesting that pushing your car more, into a lap time window that would work well within the faster groups, would be the only way to comfortably move you up.
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I would ask to have an instructor ride with you in the next higher group and see if you feel comfortable with that pace. If that's where you want to be, ask them directly how to get there.
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Another approach to safely getting closer to limits without balling up your beautiful car is to hire a good professional coach who is willing to ride right seat with you, as well as drive and narrate with you in the right seat.