smokey

A black flag for the "engineer" of the train, for a stop/start penalty in the pits, would be more just than the current convention of the "passengers" having to do the stop/start to get clear track. That would punish the offender rather than the victims. It would also encourage use of the rear view mirror and increase track awareness.

RedlineMan

Hey Guys;

- As I said previously, it is up to all of us to report less than stellar habitual driving to the event stewards EVERY TIME it occurs. If this happens, the stewards will likely inform the flaggers to be on the lookout for this driver, and to black flag him if his transgressions continue.
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I drove Mosport this past weekend, running in RED, and a VERY well respected, well known member of long and good standing held me up in every run session I went out in. Every time I came upon him, I had to dog through the corners, only to see him give me a signal, spool up the turbo, and shoot away into the distance.

I have known him for many years, and never found the nerve to approach him with my grievances. I finally got so fed up that I laid on my air horns (they are quite rude!) as he did his schtick once again going between 1 and 2. Must have unnerved him a bit, because after that he lifted and let me pass when I came upon him again.
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- Lap times for run assignments? Yes, it can make sense. Here's another scenario. I've got a buddy with a Euro 928. He's pumping 300hp, but he's on street tires. We probably run similar lap times, but he holds me up where I do my business; in the corners. If I catch him in the twisties, I can get by to stay. If not I never can catch him on the straights. If he weren't a skilled pilot, it would be a mess. Fortunately, he's not only comptetant, but courteous!

I'm sure there are the Cup Car types that would just as soon see folks like me run elsewhere. Then again, they will never get near the limit offered by those rockets like I do in my tiddler, so who's more worthy? Hmmmm...

mitch236

Forget staging the run groups according to time, that really ticks me off. I worked hard to gain the respect and trust of the "red" (instructor's) group and I would hate to see that group watered down by all the newbe's in their newly acquired GT-3's. I'm sure they are turning better lap times than me but do I trust them to be safe? Let them earn that right just as the rest of us has. (I'm not against you guys with the new GT-3's but some of you are newbe's -and I'm really jealous of that car!!!)

carreracup21

One way of handling the issue that Mitch is talking about would be to carve out a separate run group for instructors and then just grid everyone else. You could also keep the groups the way they are and then grid within each individual group. I think lap times are valuable feedback that help you gauge your own progress. It does not have to be a competitive thing, but it may be a better objective measure for the chief steward to have, particularly if a car has been placed into the wrong run group and needs to be moved up or down. I also think it is interesting that most of the people who have actually tried this lap time method of separation seem to like it.

MJR911

CarreraCup21, you seem to be a very wise man.... sounds like you're ready to forget about the politics of regional DE and come RACING!

RedlineMan

Hmmmm...

It is true that there is politics in DE. Of course, anyone who thinks it does not exist in at least equal proportions in racing is kidding themselves!

There are people who continue to be "grand-fathered" or otherwise entered in to the upper run groups. Some of them don't belong there, for sure. However, the PCA model of predominantly basing assignments on experience instead of lap times is prompted by one thing. INSUREABILITY!

As it is now configured, any mention of timing or clocks means the death of DE because of insurance. Other groups seem to get away with it. They must have different insurance. Perhaps the real underlying theme here is that PCA needs to investigate new ways of insuring DE?

Then again, is it really broken? DE is about teaching the Porsche-owning masses to drive better and thereby appreciate their fine cars more. It is NOT intended as a venue for expereinced drivers to set faster lap times. We are just there by the success of our programs, to instruct the newbies. We are a necessary evil of sorts.

Perhaps it has limitations for some, but broken? I think not.

carreracup21

Yes, well I think you are right about the racing part anyway.... Seriously though DE's are a great value and I have learned a lot doing them. I think the instructors are generally excellent and I owe them a lot. I mean where else can you hop into a car with someone who might be a CEO, engineer, doctor, lawyer, mechanic ect. and have them totally focused on helping you for several hours a weekend. DE's put people together who simply share the love of driving. Pretty cool when you think about it.

Alan G.

If you are planning to race a 964 cup. Head east, cause there are a couple of (3) 964 Cup racers out here that will let you now where you stand pretty fast. Ask JC in NY what I mean.

Alan

carreracup21

I think the level of driving at the top of PCA club racing is pretty amazing in just about every class. The guys in E, D and GTC1 are smokin fast in 964's. Drivers like JB, BS and now RS in GTC1 are some of the finest anywhere. They are also very nice people and are willing to help newbies like me ( as long as I'm slower LOL ) . Can't wait to get out there !!

Alan G.

Thats the 3. I wish I was at Mosport. Lime Rock should be a treat.

Alan

BrucePigozzi

Interesting thread. Jerome951 and Chuck seem to have come upon the MidOhio event put on by Maume Valley PCA. For more than 15 years they have assigned drivers to groups based on "times." The ap asks for your best time at the given track in the car you're planning to drive AND what time you are comfortable and capable of lapping at lap after lap. This does put the instructor in the 914-4 in a slower group and it does put some relative beginners in more advance groups but it also reduces the variation in speed within a session.
Reading this thread suggests that those who have experienced such an organization have found it works well, those who critique it seem to be doing so on theory only.

Alan G.

There are dues to be paid to move up the ranks. All too many people get fast by spending money. I would much rather have a 914 with an experienced driver in front of me, than a cup car with a newbe behind me.

There is no substitute for seat time.

BrucePigozzi

Sorry Alan, the word "dues" doesn't convince me. Safety does. Any beginning traffic engineer will tell the greatest problems occur when speed differentials are greatest. If you see the grouping of participants in DE as merely some reward system for how many events you've paid for or that you've attained the status of instructor, then I'm glad I'm not on track with you. This is not a matter of what's owed you it's a matter of what is safest.

Alan G.

Speed difference does not cause accidents, bad driving does. Gee, i bet you have more money than skilz!

BrucePigozzi

I agree bad driving can cause crashes but speed differentials contribute to situations where inexperience and ineptitude are magnified. Furthermore speed differences can cause crashes even amongst the most experienced of drivers, just look at an F-1 start when one car is having trouble starting. My original point is if you have never experienced a DE event organized around times rather than merely experience you are only talking theory and I believe your theory is wrong having done 15 years of both kinds.