Great stuff, guys;

Tony - I'll go you one better. One of our region members spun in pit lane and hit the wall... with his 4-cylinder 914! He has realized that he will NEVER live that one down.

Carrera - That is true, and I agree with you. As PRG states, it can get pretty dicey. However, I STILL would rather have differentials with a bunch of experienced guys than with a few newbs with fast cars thrown in there.

PRG - I would not be one kidding myself in your scenario, if you were referring to me. I certainly fit your mold.

I know that if they catch me at the wrong time, they are idling through the turns. If I could let them by in the turn without getting us both black flagged, I'd be glad to do so... ONLY IF they knew what they were doing and I KNEW I could trust them. They would have the same concern of course, but those who know each other would work it out.

As it is, we play by the rules, and they know after a short time that they will get the fairest break from me that is available. I'll give them the late pass, a signal BEFORE the turn in, or at the apex at the very latest. I even lift for them... me with my 147HP lifting for Cup Cars!!! If they are catching me rapidly, and I see they will be canned, I tap the brakes to signal them I'm slowing for them and let them steam on by in the brake zone.

If everyone is driving communally - as I've mentioned previously - and is doing the best that can be done, everything works out just fine. No one can expect more in our DE environment, and really has no right to. Beyond that, if they are not happy with the situation, well.... I'm not the one that bought the Cup Car... am I?

 

While that may be true, we are not talking about racing, we are talking about DE. In ALMS, two prototypes fighting for position are going to take risks when catching a GT car as it could cost them the position by being held up. The prototype will try to take the corner and the GT may not see them due to the high closing speeds.

In DE, you should not be fighting for position since there are no positions. You are also not allowed to try and pass a car that is slower in a straight line without a passing signal. If this occurs in a beginner group, and the "slow" car is also slow with the signal, then that's why there are instructors.

 

It's not the "well driven" cup cars that are the issue. It's the not so well driven cup car (or other type of "fast" car) running with a group of "slower" cars that are well driven.

 

Passing anywhere on the track is a solution for advanced groups. Just did an event where advanced can give point bys in the turns. It was great fun and there were very few trains and no excuse for a train since a pass signal could be given anywhere. Traffic flowed very well. Passing in the turns is just another skill that can be learned. It does add more risk but one can always choose to stay in intermediate if they are not comfortable learning that new skill and taking on the risk that goes with it.

Mark

 

Why not just go racing? The spirit of DE is that it is a relatively safe way to track your car. Passing in the turns removes most of the reason DE is relatively safe.

 

I have to disagree with you there. There is an organization here that allows the instructor group (maybe even the highest non-instructed group) to pass everywhere, including the turns. Have yet to witness anything unsafe in over a year. It's nowhere close to racing. You are not fighting for the corner, all DE rules still apply, pass only after being pointed by.

BTW, it's a great way to learn to drive off line.

George

 

I agree with this. I'd be uncomfortable passing in corners in a car without a full cage and a harness (and ideally a car that's fairly cheap to fix). I wouldn't mind doing this in a track day group in a race prepped wreck me otter, but personally wouldn't want to do it in my daily driver 996tt.

 

I disagree.
I have been on the track many times and completed very safe passes in many corners. This often in race group practices. The reasons the passes are safe is that there is no contest for the corners. In Arizona we have a number of groups that allow safe courteous passing in the corners. It does eliminate trains and I can tell you that it is still very safe. Sure I would not want that for novices groups, but for an experienced guy, very safe. If fact did a DE where this was not the case. Multiple times I got help up by folks that were slow in the corners, but could pull away on straights. Made it hard for me to get by. There were MANY corners where I could have executed a "safe" pass, but did not. I instead attempted a pass at the end of a straight that given I was down many hp was MORE dangerous. Truthfully I should have pulled off track and gone down the pit lane, but in that DE allowing passing in the corners would be much safer.

Anyone who really has raced know the difference between open passing and race. It not small. It is HUGE!


With respect to speed differences in endurance racing.
Honestly guys driver skill is biggest factor. IN pro racing their is risk from cars will different speeds. Then again as contrasted to DE most racers are pretty darn good so that there are few novices out there. Most incidents results from poor judgement or bad driving. I watched the Grand-am race at PIR this spring. I saw alot of incidents between cars. That being my home track I watch the race with disgust. So many bonehead moves that resulted in crashes. I think 90% of them I scratched my head and wondered why the faster car even tried to pass there. I have race at that track many times with cars both faster and slower and know where it safe to pass slower cars, and where is just not worth the risk.

 

Agreed. I don't know much we should be looking at racing for what is safe and what isn't when we are talking about speed differentials. Look at NASCAR - lots of cars going the same speed and lots of multi-car collisions.

 

Absolutely, Night and Day, there is absolutely no comparison. I have never seen open passing w/ a point-by in driver's schools to be an unsafe thing - this is between 2 organizations and a couple dozen of them - never seen an incident.

 

I was nervous about the open passing but was surprised about how easy it was to pick up and how well it worked. It's still a point-by and people giving passes are courteous. The communication is still there. Plenty of room was given to the passing car. If you tried it, you would likely not want to go back to passing only on the straights. It's that much better.

Mark

 

Gee, GhettoRacer said that DE's were pretty much the same as racing. Next you guys are going to tell me there is no Easter Bunny.

Tracquest has been doing open passing for a couple of years and it works very well. Novice group is passing only on straights and only with a point by. Intermediate is passing on straights, with or without a point (but strongly encouraged) and passing in corners only with a pointby. Fast/instructor group can pass anywhere with or without a point (but again, strongly encouraged). If you do not wish to be passed in a corner without a point by, then put an X on the back of your car.

This seems to have worked very well and I have not heard of any incidents related to passing in corners. WIth the realization that this is a DE environment, these corner passes are done with 6 feet +/- a foot of clearance. Racing, of course, is just about the same where passes are done with 6 inches clearance, +/- a foot.

 

I have instructed at several TracQuest events, and I have never seen an issue with Todd's open passing rule. In fact, I think that in the higher run groups the open passing is safer than the traditional "pass on the straights" rule. As far as needing a roll cage to pass in the corners, I drove my bone stock 986S at a TQ event at the Glen last October, and it was a blast.

 

Piling on with the group that advocates open passing with a point-by in advanced groups at DE.
One additional comment regarding Driver Education: This is a great (and safe) way for advanced drivers to learn a new skill (if they don't race or if they haven't had much experience with open passing). Not unlike another tool I've seen at DE's where the cones are removed on the 2nd day. With this practice, all groups are effected. But it is a nice new twist on DE, and some folks are timid about it...

 

For the most part I agree. Even when you are passing in corners, the passee (in a DE environment) is smart enough to back off a bit to ensure that he won't spin in the corner. It's pretty safe.

Where do I disagree? Mechanical issues have a way of surfacing in corners. If you have someone passing when a mechanical issue arises... well, that could be a problem.