Bruce
Your logic is a breath of fresh air, but the dynamic we are dealing with is one of "seniority", "entitlement" , and "fear" when it comes to any change in the way things are run in certain DE environments. The move up in run groups is considered more of a "reward" for "paying your dues" rather than simply having a safer system of impartial and objective time brackets. So ensconced is this thinking that you will likely face a barrage of attacks on your own personal driving skill rather than have the real issue addressed with any sincerity. Been there done that. You are right though.

 

Carreracup21
It's still nice to be understood!
thnx

 

Ok, let's see if I can explain it without being a personal attack...

I think that the run groups are safest when drivers of equal cornering speeds are on the track together. Spins generally happen in turns, and because of that, you don't want drivers catching each other in the turns. Cornering speeds is generally proportional to seat time (granted, some people learn faster than others).

Lap times can be hugely influenced by car type, and that generally means that faster cars are faster on the straights. If cars pass each other on the straights, it's not a big safety issue, because we know that very few cars ever spin on a straight.

So, a safer event is one where you put people of similar skills together, not one where you put ones of similar lap times together. Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence really means squat here because incident statistics are pretty hard to get ahold of. And, so few incidents occur that you can't really generate meaningful information by extrapolating from one or two DE events.

Now for my story... I spent 35 days in the white run group and this is more than some people have for total track days. During that time, I felt like I was one of the faster people in white and I couldn't understand why I wasn't being "promoted" to black. Like many, I felt like I just had to "pay my dues" and I was frustrated.

Around day 30 in white, I finally learned how to drive and I was carrying crazy momentum through corners. At that point I knew that maybe I could have been promoted earlier, but I would have just been a doorstop for the people in black. So, while at the time I felt like there was some seniority system in place, I can now look back and see that people were making fairly good judgements about which group I should be in.

 

Brian,
Thanks for a cordial response and I appreciate your arguments but have you participated in a DE which has had run groups determined by lap times (fastest and lap after lap)? Clearly there are arguments on both sides but the thread seems to suggest that all those who have experienced such an event have found it preferred and (I think) none who have spoken against it have actually tried it.
Bruce

 

I don't believe I have participated in such an event.

A question for you... How do the cutoffs happen? Is it some hard limit, like everybody running 2:15-2:20 runs in group A, and people doing 2:20-2:25 is in group B, and so on? What happens if you are right on the cusp?

 

I have participated in DE groups with run times as an organizing principle, as well as the conventional kind.

Without a doubt, organizing it solely by run times is a bad idea.

In my opinion, the issue has nothing at all to do with relative speeds, or cornering speeds, or dues paying, or anything else, other than...

...you guessed it...

...safety.

Learning how to navigate the track quickly -- and by that I mean mastering the driving line, optimizing braking and throttle inputs, downshifting, all the stuff you're hit with when you're learning to drive on a track -- is completely beside the point, when it comes to this issue.

While all of those skills are very challenging, and usually a little overhwelming to novices, they are -- by far -- the easiest thing you learn in your first five or ten visits to the track.

The difficult thing to learn is safety. This includes things like: 1) becoming comfortable with a car that's closer to the limits of adhesion, 2) slowly re-training your instincts to react more intelligently when circumstances suddenly change, and you're no longer in reliable control of the vehicle, 3) being able to react appropriately when your car is spinning or off the track, and other cars need to predict where your car is going to go, 4) being able to make the right decisions when another car loses control, 5) being able to navigate less-than-ideal traffic conditions, 6) being able to deal with debris, fluids on the track, or pieces of bodywork when they're thrown in your path, and even 7) being able to deal with overconfident novices who have decided that they've got it all figured out and want to teach the old guard some new lessons.

Relative speeds are a safety issue on public roads, but they're way down the list when you look at track safety issues. Race groups will typically have a wide variety of cars, lapping at dramatically different rates. Ask any racer if he's more concerned about lapping slower race traffic or having a handful of rookies out in the run group, and he'll tell you it's the latter.

Learning to lap is easy, and gauging lap time improvements is also a piece of cake; learning to handle the many unpredictable components of track driving is much more difficult, and very hard to measure without a lot of instructor involvement and careful structuring of events.

 

Thank you, reason is prevailing. Lap times ALONE I doubt are ever used, it's a combination, and I'm sure there are problems with "cut offs." I do know you are in big trouble if you lie about your times! Obviously I've not been the organizer but I can say that the events run by Maumee Valley PCA where times are an input to the grouping process have been some of the most pleasant DE experiences I've had in 80 or more events.

The recent NNJR event at Mosport had a friend of mine placed in Red (most experienced), he was/is an instructor driving a nicely prepared 928. He asked to be put into Black (next most experienced) where I was. Our lap times were within 4 seconds / lap of each other. We had a grand time. The Reds were generally 15 seconds faster, although there were a couple slow moving but experience cars there.

 

Jack,
I think you make some very good points and as always your remarks are cordial and suggest a great deal of experience. It seems like what you are suggesting is an imposed speed limit on less experienced drivers which is certainly one approach. The question I have is how can you reliably do that since drivers with fast cars will always find a way to "let it out" ? The problem is they will go fast anyway and perhaps lose it and what makes drivers in the lower run groups any better at handling that situation than the more experienced drivers ? At least if they lose it in a more experienced ( faster ) crowd there will be less chance for tangling with a much slower car. Big speed differentials are a problem and it will continue as the newer cars get faster and faster relative to the older ones. A driver in a faster car should have the same opportunity to explore the limits and learn the as a driver in a slower car. All the things you listed in your safety concerns would be better learned if you were in a speed matched group where you could put that limited track time to good use instead of playing follow the leader.

 

Guys...

What I think you are seeing played out here is that there IS NO one way to do it. The "way it has always been done" is to factor in all the things that everyone is championing here, and make the best of it.

Certainly there are places where politics comes into play, or used to. I feel this is falling by the wayside rapidly as soooo many people from outside a region are participating. And therein lies another problem for another thread.

Al suggested paying ones dues, which I feel he meant in the way Brian described his own situation, and Jack expanded on. Learning what you really need to learn to avoid your being a rolling chicane (or worse) in Black or Red. There is a lot more to it than just quick lap times, as Jack so wonderfully inllustrated.

Let me offer my perspectives as a perenial Red group rolling chicane. I ran in Black at the Zone 1 48 Hours at Watkins Glen. It can reasonably be assumed - on paper - that my 84 944 fits better there than in Red. The reality was that I was held up in every session, seemingly every lap, every day, by at least 10-20% of the cars on the track. This used to be an advanced group! My car has 147 freaking HP, and I'm being consistently held up. Something does not compute here!

Should I settle for this because the Cup Cars won't want me in Red? It is driver skill, awareness, and courtesy that win the day here, not lap times alone.

Bruce, I too was at Mosport. I was in Red in my beloved Chicanemobile. Reference "slow moving" in your last note! My films interestingly portray a group that is blowing by me in the straights at stupifying differentials. Those packs of Cup Cars are bloody quick. That Farler-built black 911 has to have 500HP! Yet the gap almost always stabilizes - at least significantly - in the turns.

No problems all weekend long. No hassles. No close calls. One car passes before the track out in 2 and another before turn in for 3, the first on the left and the second on the right! GREAT FUN! My car will barely crack 100 on the back straight, and yet I am turning mid 1:40 lap times (so I am told). No one complaining about me that I know of. I've asked my peers. No one has ever complained.

Should I be in Red where 98% of the cars blow by me, or should I be in Black with you guys? Honestly, I love to be in Black... IF I get a signal and a lift when I crawl up somebody's tailpipe, not a puff of smoke as they floor it. I actually get to PASS some people in Black!!!

I love the Sunday afternoon combined sessions. One of the things that is going through my mind is how many guys in Black have been thinking they should have been in Red. Guys like all of us that thought we deserved to be moved into the upper eschelons before we had "paid our dues." Then they are out there where "they belong" with the Red cars and have a real hard time not getting run over.

Your buddy was in a Black 928? I passed one in one of those sessions, running with some sort of red 911 and a 944 Turbo in a little pack I think. I was quite shocked to see all of them hold back and wave off the pass I gave them coming out of 5B as I pulled out my calendar to chart my straightaway progress yet another time. Stupendously courteous move, that one! I was touched!

Should I have been out there getting held up by these cars all weekend, or was I better off only getting held up a few times, but being in the way of cars 50mph and 100-200-300 HP stronger than I?

PLEASE, I'm not arguing or picking on ANYONE here, just illustrating an example. No, I have not run a lap time event. I know that I am on the extreme, and do not represent the norm by any means, especially these days with all these rocket ships. But my situation is just as important as anyone elses, and illustrates the fact that no one criteria can tell the story or set the agenda. I know that I do not want to be in charge of run groups!

When it is all said and done, I'm like the racer somebody mentioned. I'd much rather be around an experienced and predictable "slow" driver that gave me a quick signal and a lift... ANY DAY, than some big wallet in a GT3 that hits the wall right before the pit entrance!!! How do you hit the wall right before the pit entrance at Mosport?????

I have a theory! Oooops, I know, I'm being bad.

 

I saw this thread was getting pretty big and I wanted to see where it stacked up against some of the others over the last year. Looks like the biggest by far was started by GhettoRacer. I was not around for that one. What a riot reading that thread was !! I guess the Ghetto man has not been around for awhile ehh.

- Sorry for the diversion. Redlineman maybe you nailed it when you said there just isn't one right way to do it ....but you should try it some time just for fun. Also I too am glad I don't have to do the separating either cause it looks like a serious pain in the @## to run one of these events.

 

I'm not suggesting a speed limit at all. Drivers who don't check their mirrors and wave faster cars by should be black flagged, relentlessly. Getting black flagged is an important part of learning to drive on a track.

They aren't. But a novice group, by definition, is one where everyone is anticipating rookie mistakes that lead to offs. Drivers who are in the instructor's group shouldn't be put in a position where they're having to watch for the same thing. They're often right at the limits of their cars' capabilities. They need to know that the other drivers out with them are going to know exactly what to do when things get hairy.

The danger is coming from the car that has lost control. Whether it's interfering with a faster or a slower car isn't an issue, to me.

I disagree. Big speed differentials are part of racing, at all levels, and are an important tool in learning how to drive on a track. Differentials in experience and education are the problem, and they're minimized by keeping rookies in one run group -- with instructors in their passenger seats as often as is humanly possible.

Absolutely. That's why I favor aggressive use of the black flag for cars that cause trains. I also favor small run groups.

You learn more about safety in traffic than you do when you're out there trying to get your fastest lap. I think there should be ample amounts of both. But I also believe novices need safety training more than they need speed training.

I hope I'm not coming off too "Mister Teacher Dad" here. These are only my opinions. As a beginner in DE's, my favorite moments were always when I was tangling with a car that was just a second or two quicker than me. At the same time, what I enjoyed out there, and what did the best to make me a safer track driver, were not always the same thing.

Fast drivers do not always equal safe drivers. The mention of the ghettoracer thread makes for a great example. Ghettoracer was a fairly experienced and fast driver who didn't appear to have evee put much emphasis on safety or track etiquette. His good lap times were not much help when he tried his hand in a spec Miiata race, and tried to 'navigate' his car after a spin, using intermittent braking to try and avoid oncoming traffic. He didn't follow the basic maxim of 'both feet in,' and two cars were pretty much totalled as a result. He'd jumped around between so many different DE groups that it diesn't appeared he ever got the basics of how to safely interact with others on the track.

 

LMAO About that Ghetto Racer Flame War. This thread atracts attention cause there are always different perspectives and certainly there is no right or wrong. I respect your experiences, and admit that Bruce has much more of a base of experience than I have. Esperience = Dues

I am not an instructer, but I think they should get thrown some bones cause if they were not around to make sacrafices, then most of us would not have the opportunity to learn what driving really is. By dues I meant seat time, time spent helping to run events, generally contributing instead of just throwing down $$ driving and going home.

If someone with more HP is running the smae lap time as a slower car they will be in conflict in the corners, cause a big part of the faster cars advantage is just mashing the gas. With only 207 (911) HP it is pretty common to give a pass on the straight and then get hung out in the corners.

The most DE fun I ever had was open track at WGI, with 59 other cars about 20 cups, going four wide down the front straight and watching the offline antics of the racers.

 

Better still, how do you hit the wall in the pit out - on the way OUT to the track??

Ahhh yes, it was just last year. Nice shiny 996TT, driver entranced with power, takes his beast from the paddock through the pit entrance at Watkins Glen and nails it. Next thing he knows his shiny black TT was mashed into the pit wall driver's right.

I'm sure his lap times were better than mine in my trusty 3.2L 911. You can also be sure that nobody was comfortable around this guy on track

 

Jack,
I would respond to all that, but it just looks like too much work..... I will say that in certain race series like ALMS, Grand-am and others, the most dangerous situations often arise from significant speed differentials between the seperate car classes.

 

I'm with Mr. 21 on this. I race a formula mazda in a club where I'm grouped with formula V's and spec racer fords that are 10 to 15 seconds a lap slower. The most "exciting" moments occur dicing with other FM's and formula continental's while
trying to get through lapped traffic engaged in their own significantly slower race.
In a DE environment, the system with a newbie group, intermediate groups divided by a combination of times and experience, and a instructor group (need to throw them a bone) makes the most sense.
I think some of you may be kidding yourselves if you don't think you're holding up a well set up, well driven, slick shod 996 cup car in the corners. My inflammatory $0.02.