jerome951

I had the opportunity to attend a DE organized by an Ohio or Michigan PCA region a few years ago that grouped cars by estimated lap times at levels above novice (if I remember correctly). At the time I had ~ 4 DE weekends under my belt.

I felt that weekend was the best DE I've attended because I was able to run so many laps with little or no traffic. I was really able to work on different lines and techniques each lap without being stuck behind someone waiting for a passing signal or lifting to allow a pass and screwing up my entry speed. Near the end of the weekend, we even naturally started to grid based on speed within the groups to allow those faster than us in the same group maximum open track.

I also felt it was the safest event I'd attended because there was minimal passing. Additionally, I didn't have to worry about that 996TT, Cup car, Viper, etc. blasting up behind me and waiting for a pass. And the best thing. No trains....

Just my opinion. I wish more regions did the same.

sjanes

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I enjoy traffic. Although, since I run in black, I never have to deal with trains, but I find that I start to get a little bored if I spend too much time driving all alone. Sure, I'll work on this or that, but playing with other cars that are driven by guys that I trust is a lot more fun than just trying to lay down the best lap times. Driver's Ed would lose some of it's appeal for me if cars were gridded by lap times.

Just my $0.02
SJ

M758

SJ,
I too like traffic, but we have advance to a different level. Being a racer, it is not much fun to race with no other cars. So while DE is never a race it can get dull with nobody else on the track around you.

That said when I was in my early days I loved clean no traffic anywhere laps. Nobody passing me and me not having to pass anyone else.

jerome951

That was the cool thing about this event as we began to grid by lap time. If you wanted to, you could easily find someone of similar speed to dice with for as long as you wanted. If you blew a turn or two, someone would come up behind you causing you to work to stay ahead of them.

I agree that traffic can be fun, but sometimes it's hard to find someone of comparable speed in the upper run groups due to car capabilities.

Z-man

Then why not let him by and try to keep up with him instead?

-Z.

adrial

I am amazed by how close the cars in the upper run groups run to eachother...

I would be scared to see cars that close to eachother in green/yellow.

I think it is good the way the run groups are seperated now. It is far better to do it by driver experience than by vehicle speed. This is coming from a novice DE'er (currently in yellow after 3 days DE).

sbelles

Great thread so far guys! I will echo what seems to be a common progression of attitude as drivers gain more experience. When I first started doing DE's I found myself constantly frustrated by trains, clueless drivers and others issues that seemed to be so pervasive in the lower run groups. I would be one of the first ones to grid so that I could get some open track laps and I would be very frustrated at the end of a run if I spent a lot of laps in behind traffic especially if I thought other drivers were being at best less then attentive and at worst overly pumped on testosterone. It may be a stereotype but I never remember being frustrated by a female driver. As I have gained experience I have learned a few things.

1. I'm driving a car that handles exceptionally well and makes me look good even when my driving is mediocre.
2. Everyone progresses at their own rate. Many new drivers are using all of their faculties to negotiate the course safely no matter what their speed. (As they should be)
3. Traffic is fun!
-catching and passing is fun
-letting faster cars pass and going to school is fun
-anticipating what drivers you are overtaking are going to do and establishing contingency plans if they don't do it is both fun and really good training.

I've run with a number of different regions and there can be some problems with people getting placed in the wrong group for their experience but the overwhelming majority of the people in solo groups that I have run in have been both courteous and predictable.

As to the original question, I think that most regions struggle to balance both car capability and experience when determining run groups which is not an easy task when dealing with unknown drivers.

38D

I normally pass you before your arm is even fully out the window

Brian P

Thank you for proving my point.

KOAN

Great points have been made, and I'd just like to add my $.02. I've done more DEs than I can count, and the ones that apply the time based groups (there are very few) have been the most enjoyable for me, both as a driver and an instructor. My intermediate students are the ones who are most frustrated by trains, and these are greatly reduced by timed groups. I still, of course, accompany my student for most of the event, so the disparity in awareness and appropriate speed management are not abandoned concerns. In fact, it provides a good example for intermediate students to see the next level. Everyone at this type of event knows the groundrules, and for that reason, I have not experienced many of these hypothetical pitfalls. Most less experienced students, no matter what car they have,( if they do happen to know their times), will have slower speeds than more experienced drivers in slower cars at the twisty tracks (Mid Ohio) where I have attended this type of event.
Bottom line...I like this format, and haven't seen the problems that have been raised.

sjanes

The problem (for me at least) with your theory is that I can't be confident of the other driver's ability since they could just be driving a 500hp turbo that looks stock and running the same lap time as my 217hp 911. If I'm driving with someone that is blowing corners while trying to stay ahead of me, I would just back off and go look for someone else to 'play with'.

PT

To emphasize Stacy's point, I'm sure many of us had seen and/or tried the following:

Instructor took a student out in a lower run group for a demo run, pass a high horwsepower car. The car immediately sped up trying to stay close and in doing so overdrive it (and the driver's ability). I have seen some where you can tell the driver was on edge and almost lost it.

Imagine if we are now mixing cars strictly based on lap times. I can only think that it will be accident waiting to happen.

Brian P

Ok... seems like the consensus is that traffic is fun. Traffic is especially fun (and instructive) if you can hook up with somebody driving a comparable speed.

Clean laps are fun too if you are interested in lap times and you want to see how well you compare to the club racers.

I have yet to find someone that thinks trains are fun. If you are the 4th or 5th car in a train, you are likely following at a speed where you can go offline without much drama. There just isn't much opportunity for learning when you are stuck in a train. Maybe we just need the flaggers to be more aggressive with the black flag when a train starts. I.e., make the leader of the train roll through the pits and allow the train to break up.

After a couple of black flags, I'm willing to bet that the drivers would learn to get traffic around them much quicker.

DrJupeman

You know, this isn't really a horrible idea. If the flaggers can adequately id the offender (I wonder if they could), then an occassional black flag for train formation is probably a good teaching lesson.

mitch236

It would be very easy to find the offender, it's the leader.

The interesting phenomenon about trains is that eveyone but the leader thinks that they are faster than everyone else.